Letter to the Editor: Dog Days of Summer
Kevin Dunne, the lawyer for the Solesky family, shares his thoughts on legislation taken up by Maryland's General Assembly that would overturn much of his client's verdict.
As a Maryland attorney for the last 32 years, my practice has largely focused on cases dealing with catastrophic injuries. That practice is driven by what I would hope to be an uncontroversial belief: namely, that the cost of an injury should be borne by the person who caused it, rather than by the victim.
As a result, and specifically as a result of my representation of a ten-year-old boy who was brutally mauled by a neighbor’s pit bull dog, I have recently been thrust into a heated and, at times, toxic public debate concerning the dangerousness of certain breeds of dogs.
This debate has been particularly frustrating for two reasons. First, it is a debate in which the two sides do not actually disagree about the important parts. Second, it is a debate that has distracted from the real issue. If we as a society are interested in preventing serious injuries or death and adequately compensating victims, the dialogue has to change.
On April 28, 2007, ten-year-old Dominic Solesky was attacked by a neighbor’s pit bull dog behind his family’s East Towson home. The dog bit Dominic many times, but finally bit deeply into Dominic's groin, and severed his femoral artery. Ordinarily, such an injury is fatal within minutes.
If not for the heroic efforts of neighbors, EMT responders and Johns Hopkins physicians, Dominic would not have survived the attack. Instead, Dominic spent 17 days at the pediatric ICU and a year of rehabilitation for his injuries. Dominic did nothing to cause or to deserve this attack. Dominic’s story is one of too many in the United States, in which the tremendous personal and financial costs are imposed on innocent families.
The Solesky family hired me to represent them, and I brought suit against the owner of the pit bull dog and the owner’s landlord. The pit bull’s owner promptly filed for bankruptcy, leaving the Soleskys to bear the costs of Dominic’s injuries. The Soleskys proceeded, therefore, with their suit against the landlord.
The landlord’s insurance carrier hired attorneys who initially tried to blame Dominic for the attack. When this proved unsuccessful, the landlord sought protection under a Maryland rule that required a victim to prove that the landlord or owner had actual prior knowledge of the viciousness of a dog before the landlord could be held liable. Even though the landlord had explicitly permitted two pit bulls on the leased property, the landlord also attempted in that lease to disclaim any responsibility for attacks by the pit bulls.
At trial, the landlord claimed that the Soleskys could not prove that the landlord knew that the pit bull was dangerous. If the landlord had been successful, the Soleskys would have had no recovery against anyone for the attack on their son.
The case went before the Maryland Court of Appeals, and on April 26, 2012 that court issued an opinion changing the Maryland common law. That new law has two aspects. First, any owner of a pit bull is liable for injuries caused by that dog without a showing that the owner knew in advance that the dog is vicious. (In the law, this is called “strict liability.”) Second, if the owner is a renter, then the owner’s landlord will likely be held strictly liable.
Because the opinion concerned only pit bulls and not all breeds of dogs, the opinion unleashed a firestorm of public debate. I have since been interviewed by roughly 20 members of the media, and have appeared on television and radio. This debate has gone on for months in the media and before a legislative task force in Annapolis.
Many Marylanders took issue with the court’s opinion, which they viewed as “discrimination.” Some even likened it to racism (an argument that really trivializes race relations in this country). From my perspective, these arguments fall flat.
My primary concern remains, as I believe it should remain for everyone, that catastrophic accidents should be avoided and that victims should be compensated for their injuries. Whether any “stigma” is placed on a particular breed of dog is not as important. The victims should matter more.
Others took issue with the statistical data on which the decision was based. Again, I disagree. Studies have shown that pit bull dogs are responsible for 60 percent of U.S. fatalities caused by dogs.
The dangerousness of this breed was recently confirmed by University of Texas physicians, Dr. Bini and Dr. Cohn, in Annals of Surgery, Volume 253, April 2011, where they concluded that pit bulls present an unacceptable actuarial risk for humans and are, in fact, an inherently dangerous breed. Americans love their dogs, however, and a certain segment of the population will simply not be convinced of this until they observe it themselves. (Google the name “Darla Napora” for a particularly sad and gruesome example.)
Strangely, however, the two sides of this debate largely do not disagree when the issue is framed in terms of personal responsibility. Americans love dogs, but they also believe in personal responsibility. As I have observed over the last three months, even the staunchest pit bull defenders do not challenge that a dog owner should be liable for injuries that their dog causes.
Generally, therefore, no one in the debate seems to oppose a rule extending strict liability to all dog owners. From a victims’ rights perspective, that would be a reasonable outcome. I am not concerned with whether pit bull owners are treated differently than owners of other breeds. I am only concerned with whether injuries are prevented and victims are compensated for their injuries by the people that caused them.
This view appeared to be carrying the day at the task force hearing on June 19, 2012, and Delegate Curtis Anderson and Senator Brian Frosh told the Daily Record last week that they intend to introduce identical bills in the General Assembly that would extend the Court of Appeals strict liability rule to all dog owners. The devil is in the details, however: the proposed bill would not likewise expressly hold landlords responsible.
The proposed bill, as a result, would do little to prevent violent dog attacks or to ensure that the families of victims like Dominic Solesky are not left to bear their medical expenses on their own. Remember, when the Soleskys sued the pit bull’s owner, the owner was able to avoid liability by filing for bankruptcy protection. Without assets or insurance, the dog’s owner can avoid having to pay.
Victims like the Solesky family might likewise be driven into bankruptcy as a result of medical bills. Meanwhile, if the proposed bill goes forward in a manner that takes the landlords and their insurers’ off the hook, those who could actually be in a position to prevent these attacks and to pay the victim’s medical bills will be out of the picture.
Remember, in Dominic’s case, we had a landlord who knew that the pit bulls were being kept in a residential neighborhood, referred to the pit bulls in the lease, and self-servingly tried in that lease to push responsibility for attacks onto her tenants.
I maintain my belief that victims’ rights should be paramount. If this debate has been about balancing victims’ rights against the rights of people to keep dogs of a particular breed, however, I fear that both sides may be losing. This needs to be understood—this debate should never have been about the dogs.
The Solesky family did not bring suit because they hate pit bulls. The Solesky family brought suit because their son was nearly killed and someone should be held responsible for that. I can only hope that their effort is vindicated, and out of this debate a law emerges that ensures justice is done for the victims.
Kevin A. Dunne is a shareholder at Ober|Kaler in Baltimore and represents the Soleskys.
Annapolis Resident 21401
5:38 pm on Thursday, August 9, 2012
Thank you for this analysis of the issues. I hope enough people read this to understand the bill and the importance of the changes that have been made regarding the landlord liability.
Colleen Carter
3:40 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
There is no landlord liability as long as the court has not addressed the Motion for Reconsideration that was presented several months ago. The state attorney general's office has issued clear instruction that until the court addresses this motion one way or the other, the ruling is, essentially, in "limbo" and there is no liability to any landlord in the state.
Additionally, the General Assembly made it clear that they are against both the "inherently dangerous" label on pit bulls, and they are against landlord liability. The wording of the final law was the only sticking point in the Senate, NOT the decision to essentially overturn this ruling, and this passed through the House unanimously. It will happen in January, but the details are yet to be worked out. But there is little doubt that this ruling will not stand, and some sort of general "dangerous dog" law that excludes landlord liability, and does not specify any breed of dog, will end up passing in January. I am disappointed that our lawmakers could not come to an agreement on details, but not disappointed with the overall effort to overturn this ruling in favor of more reasonable legislation.
Tony Solesky
2:03 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Colleen, That 3:40 post has merit. Of course we are all reading the tea Leaves but weather I prefer it or not what you say about January does not seem all together out of the question. What is your estimation on why they did'nt get it done this try? I was thinking it was easier issue then gambling when they started introducing Bills.
Colleen Carter
4:01 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
It went through the House unanimously, and no one objected to overturning the ruling, especially the landlord liability part of it. There was no consensus on language for replacement legislation, and I think the gambling bill was more of a priority and they didn't want to devote to much more time to it.
It's not brain surgery to see where this is headed.
Urge Tech
1:16 am on Thursday, January 3, 2013
Quality articles is the important to attract the people to pay a visit the website, that�s what this web site is providing.
http://www.homeimprovementblog.eu
Tony Solesky
7:23 am on Friday, August 10, 2012
Enough people will if they go to www.dogsbite.org/maryland
Chas Cherry
3:00 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
Referring to a source that has no credibility does no good for your viewpoint. dogsbite.org uses media reports instead of actual case histories. Media reporters are not qualified dog identification experts (there are none including conformation show judges)
Colleen Carter
3:27 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
dogbite.org is a sham website, and is not backed by any professional organization, nor is staffed by anyone with any academic degree of any kind, much less one in veterinary medicine or research. The information found on this website is not cited and cannot be verified. It is run by a person who previously made a living as an online psychic under the moniker "Divine Goddess" -- telling fortunes for a buck a minute. There is no actual research or study connected with any information found on dogbite.org. Is is personal opinion and "research" conducted by web surfing (as stated in their page disclaimer).
It is a sad reflection on both Mr. Dunne's professionalism as an attorney, and on the due diligence of this court, that any statistics or information from this sham website was ever presented or considered in any court of law. Personally, I have a hard time believing that anyone with a law degree could have used information from this website in good faith, and I personally believe that this was a case of knowingly providing false information to a court, and should be addressed as such.
If you are interested in actual, cited facts and statistics that can verified through such sources as the CDC and the American Veterinary Medical Association, please go to the National Canine Research Council at http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/
Jen
2:19 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
And you feel good about DBO/Colleen Lynn's statistics whose staunchest supporter is Dawn James/Craven Desires? I certainly wouldn't want my children looking at the "information" or the foul language that is posted on Craven Desire's website.
Jennifer G.
11:17 pm on Tuesday, August 21, 2012
I completely agree about dogsbite.org having zero credibility. Aside from the questionable "statistics" and "facts," the site has absolutely no interest in civil, reasoned discourse and really doesn't pretend to. I attempted to post a comment on a blog post there. The comment contained some constructive (but polite) criticism of Mr. Solesky's e-book, and the moderator opted not to post it. And yes, I actually was surprised by that, since it would have given their followers the opportunity to paint me as a "nutter" and criticize the heck out of my opinions.
Brian
7:51 am on Friday, August 10, 2012
Nice article. Though I agree that the dog owner should be held responsible for any harm the dog brings to the victim, I disagree that the landlord should be responsible for the harm done by the tenants pets. To me this is like holding car manufacturer responsible for car accidents. The car makers manufacture a product that kill thousands of people every year and we dont hold them liable.
By holding the landlord responsible you are now making another victim. The landlord should not be made to pay (possible financial ruin) for the actions of the tenant's pet..
Lets hold gun makers responsible for all the gun violence.
Hold the dog owner responsible not the building owner.
Rick Hudson
11:28 am on Friday, August 10, 2012
I agree with most everythng you said, but your second to last sentence contradicts your point. That is no different then holdong Ford responsible for car accidents or Coors responsible DUI's.
Under this logic that is expressed in this article, the landlord for the Aurora, Clorado should be held fiscally liable to the victims for renting to mass murderer.
Mike
3:17 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
Rick, I agree with you about Brian's post, except that I have to think the statement "Lets hold gun makers responsible for all the gun violence" was sarcasm. Don't know, but that was my take.
Brian
8:14 am on Monday, August 13, 2012
Yes my "Lets hold gun makers responsible for all the gun violence." was sarcasm. Sorry for the confusion.
Tony Solesky
9:28 am on Monday, August 13, 2012
Brian, Respectfully you don't know what strict liability means. Just understand that the ruling in the court means I don't need to prove that a dog owner or a landlord knows that dogs bite and that biting can be dangerous or deadly. Even though you know it under the law I have to prove you know it which is why it is called one free bite. You know a car is dangerous or a boat or a swiming Pool I don;t have to prove you know that to bring a case. Now I still have to bring a case and I have to prove that in the knowledge of that swimong pool being dangerous and that my child died you didnt drive right or act right in yiour care and control of a LEAGALLy dangerously desiganated car or pool. In my. All this does is show that the accident was caused by a car dealership who RENTED me a unsafe car that lead to the accident, If you sold me a know dangerous car and you did all you where supposed to to make it comply with prudent safety measures I can sue you even though you are considered strictly Liable. I would love to get on the radio and explain why the animal lobby and Landlords dont frame it as it really is.
Tony Solesky
9:40 am on Monday, August 13, 2012
Brian, It should say I can't sue you even though under the law you are held to strict liability. As a Charter boat captain I am held to strict Liability it doesn't mean I can be sued and pay just because you drowned on my charter boat or a boat I rented to another Captain that day who had a accident with my boat. It means the droqning victim does not have to prove I know that a person could be killed and that the water is inherently dangoerous. It is also called per sey negligence. There is a reason no one from the Landlord or animal lobby has said what it is but have now changed to support it for all dog owners but not them as landlords when only in June they and the humane groups where against it for anybody. You will come to find I am a good guy who knows you don;t know and I know why you don't know. Have your delegat arrange a Town Hall meeting and I will come speak and you will be blown away by why you think you know and why you don;t know. You will find I would have never made it this far otherwise. what you think is reasonalbe but not applicable and I am not able to write it out. If you know how to do a Pod cast set it up and I will do it.
Brian
10:08 am on Monday, August 13, 2012
Ok Tony... I now know what strict liability is . So what you are saying is that the home is the product. The tenant was the user of product. So because in use of the product (house) an injury happened, the landlord can be sued.
Colleen Carter
4:19 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
Should a landlord go to jail because his tenant is molesting children? Is a landlord guilty of fraud if his tenant has a credit card scam set up in a home office? What if his tenant lures a woman into the home and rapes and murders her? Should the landlord be on trial along with the rapist and murderer?
If we hold every landlord responsible for a tenant's criminal behavior, every tenant will need a background check similar to a DoD security clearance in order to rent, and the privacy of the tenant will be superseded by the landlord's paranoia about his tenant's activities.
We are turning landlords into nannies, responsible for their tenants on a level more like children like adults paying rent for a domicile. It's a ridiculous and poorly-considered decision, and there is little-to-no doubt that it will be overturned in the next full General Assembly session.
Unless this court does the right thing, and actually reconsiders this ridiculous and embarrassing decision. I have no doubt that Mr. Dunne feels that his client's right to collect money in any possible manner for this son's injuries (and his 40% fee) is more important than the lives of tens of thousands of Maryland renters and dog owners who statistically pose absolutely no threat to anyone, but who have had their lives seriously and traumatically impacted. As seen by the public outcry, Maryland citizens feel quite differently, and lawmakers have heard this loud and clear.
HappieGrannie
7:19 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Brian I agree the owner should be held responsible not the landlord
Truthsayer
9:21 am on Friday, August 10, 2012
I was sitting behind Solesky in the hearing on Thursday. When a dog trainer brought up the excellent point that landlords are not trained to identify a pit bull, she asked "how do you identify a pit bull". Solesky leaned over to his lawyer, Kevin Dunne and said, "That's easy, it's the one with the kid in its mouth" and had a laugh about it.
Clearly Solesky has no regards for the severity of this unprecedented court case and thinks that a dog mauling is funny. This judgement should be overturned especially if we want to protect society. PG county has a ban in place for pit bulls and their own study shows that not only does it cost the county $250k per year and "public safety is not improved as a result of the ban". What this court case did is that they couldn't get money from the dog owner because the person filed bankruptcy, so the lawyer went after the landlord so that they can collect. That's all they care about is ensuring that they can get money. Public safety is clearly not their concern.
Bart
7:34 am on Monday, August 13, 2012
Solesky wanted his pound of flesh and didn't care how he got it. The whole ruling was just a knee-jerk reaction to a horrible attack on a child. I understand his legal team shopped around and convinced a retired judge to come out of retirement to make the ruling.
"Pit bull mixes" are impossible to identify 100%.
If the next horrific attack is by a Rottweiler, then this whole circus will start all over again with another breed. The bill to make all dog owners responsible for their pets, no matter what the breed is a responsible one.
Landlords should not be held responsible. They cannot know everything that is going on within their properties. To make them responsible is a very large burden to put on them.
Penny
6:58 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
All they should really do is leave the dog out, and make it about the owner of the dog. Do not allow personal injury awards to be expunged in bankruptcy. We already cannot clear child support, student loans, or tax burdens in bankruptcy. Why not keep the liability where it belongs. Period.
Colleen Carter
6:05 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
This comment, and the fact that he attempted to insult and demean Mike by "outing" him as a woman posing as a man to increase her credibility, is all I need to know about Mr. Solesky.
Y-U-C-K-!
Rebecca
9:34 am on Friday, August 10, 2012
I totally agree with Brian.
<< Remember, in Dominic’s case, we had a landlord who knew that the pit bulls were being kept in a residential neighborhood, referred to the pit bulls in the lease, and self-servingly tried in that lease to push responsibility for attacks onto her tenants.>>
This is not "self-serving" at all on the part of the landlord, just common sense for Pete's sake.
Colleen Carter
3:44 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
Just about any lease that includes a dog of any breed is going to have a clause that the tenant is responsible for any damage caused by the dog. This includes damage to the rental property, as well as any liability. I don't see how this "self-serving" either. It's typical attorney double-speak to attempt to make it so.
Tony Solesky
9:55 am on Friday, August 10, 2012
To Brian actually it is like hoding the car owner responsible for the passengers in his car as the car driver is on the title. Your analogy would be like holding the Home builder responsible. So your conclusion is flawed based on a not being parellel.
Mike
4:01 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
Tony, all due respect, but this is nonsense. The existence of multiple, similar parallels does not negate the applicability of any one of them. The existence of a more precise analog does not inherently render other less precise ones invalid. The question with any analogy is whether it illustrates a point correctly. In this case it does, even if others do so better.
Brian
8:24 am on Monday, August 13, 2012
@ Tony...The difference is that the car driver(owner) is in control of the car therefore hold some responsibility for the safety of his/her passengers. The landlord is not controlling the daily activities of the tenants therefore should not be held responsible for the tenants actions.
Tony Solesky
10:19 am on Friday, August 10, 2012
Actually I do think my comment was funny and it was meant to be just that. truthsayer it was in fact the dog trainer who set the tone for humor in what should be a public safety matter with the poster propaganda. Iit is humours, the general public does not have the burden of identifiying a PitBull the owner does and I have not yet met the Pitbull defender that disputes that all of the dogs in shelters are Pitbulls or that their dog is a Pitbull. What is the trainers point? ??? What are you defending then? I will be there at the house today perhaps you should sign up and testify about my comment so I can take them to task for allowing this type testimony. There is nothing I would love more then to repond to any all questions they have. The reason is obvious the more air time I get the more comes out on how misguided the oposition camp has been. Did You tell them about me hugging Nicky Ratcliff, did you tell them about me petting the sweet female PitBull service dog that was in the hallway , Did you tell them about me talking to the lobbyist from the huimane society? If you are going to bring it up bring it all up and if you are going to expect respect do it in the public eye. I want to be held to account for any and all comments. I will see you at the house and I will report back on weather or not you come up and introduce yourself to me. Here is my written invitation.
Tim Hoelscher
12:44 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
Tony, allow me to be the first to say that I don't know what the hell my dogs are. I have two dogs that I refer to as "pit bulls." Both were shelter adoptions. We had another dog that we adopted in 2003 and who died earlier this year. We called her a "pit bull," too. Why? Mostly because they were described as such by those who found them or adopted them out. As we learned more about the stigmas against pit bull-type dogs, we realized that they conformed to some of the vague properties used in areas where breed-specific legislation was in place. Our latest addition, however, has far fewer of these qualities, being thinner and of a slighter build than the "typical pit bull." Would he be removed from my home and possibly killed if such legislation existed in Maryland or my county as does in Denver? Yes, I believe so. It's a sick standard, but I am forced to describe my dogs in terms of whether or not they would be subject to discriminatory laws.
It's a complex issue for those who advocate for "pit bulls" - this odd group of dogs that, paradoxically, doesn't really exist at all as any kind of homogeneous group. It's an even more complex issue for those who would legislate against them, and for those who must enforce that legislation.
Brook Hubbard
10:20 am on Friday, August 10, 2012
"Studies have shown that pit bull dogs are responsible for 60 percent of U.S. fatalities caused by dogs."
The CDC report is about fatal dog bites. There were 238 over the course of the 20 year study. That amounts to 11.9 fatal dog bites per year.
The CDC that says, of those fatal dog bites, ~32% were caused by Pit Bulls. That is ~3.8 fatal dog bites per year.
That is the only data that is conclusive. In a 20 year study, ~when~ a fatal dog bite occurs (which is 50% less likely to occur than being struck by lightning), 32% of the time it is by a Pit Bull.
Now is the time to use critical thinking instead of just throwing around statistics. If only 3.8 dog bite fatalities each year were caused by Pit Bulls, what is that out of the entire population of Pit Bulls? Pit Bulls account between 5 and 9.6% of the US dog population... which comes to about 5.3 million Pit Bulls. Out of those, ~4 of them killed someone.
Are you willing to condemn a breed of millions based on ~4 bad apples?
Chas Cherry
3:04 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
The CDC also quit keeping records by breed because of the impossibility of doing so.
Colleen Carter
4:07 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Actually, according to the definition most often applied to "pit bull type dogs" -- which is a short-haired mutt that is a combination of any of 10 different breeds of dog -- a closer estimate is between 40% and 60% of all dogs in the U.S.
The 5% - 9.6% estimate that you are using is for dogs that are confirmed to have at least some Amstaff or Staffordshire Bull Terrier in their mix. An Ohio DNA study concluded that 80% of dogs visually identified as "pit bull" by shelter workers and dog wardens had no Amstaff or SBT DNA, and were mixes of breeds ranging from American Bulldog to Boxers to Bullmastiffs. Using visual identification only, the statistic for many "pit bull type dogs" exist in America is MUCH higher, in excess of 30 million if we trust to ASPCA estimation of 88 million dogs in America.
That makes the likelihood of a "pit bull" attack less than two one hundredths of a percent.
Brook Hubbard
10:20 am on Friday, August 10, 2012
"The dangerousness of this breed was recently confirmed by University of Texas physicians, Dr. Bini and Dr. Cohn, in Annals of Surgery, Volume 253, April 2011, where they concluded that pit bulls present an unacceptable actuarial risk for humans and are, in fact, an inherently dangerous breed."
That is not what the study said and I am shocked that anyone with a higher education would fail at critical thinking so hardly. The exact conclusion was that, "Compared with attacks by other breeds of dogs, attacks by pit bulls were associated with a higher median Injury Severity Scale score (4 vs. 1; P = 0.002), a higher risk of an admission Glasgow Coma Scale score of 8 or lower (17.2% vs. 0%; P = 0.006), higher median hospital charges ($10,500 vs. $7200; P = 0.003), and a higher risk of death (10.3% vs. 0%; P = 0.041)."
That statement does ~not~ say that Pit Bulls are an unacceptable actuarial risk nor that they are inherently dangerous. Nowhere in their study did they say that Pit Bulls were more likely to bite; they treated 228 dog bites, only 82 (~36%) of which were of a known breed and 29 (~13%) were Pit Bulls. If 13% of traumatic dog bites are caused by Pit Bulls (in the scope of that given study) that is the opposite of conclusive about that breed causing more bites.
Colleen Carter
3:49 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
The study was of 228 dog-related in one hospital over a 15-year period, of which 29 (over FIFTEEN YEARS) were called (but not confirmed as) "pit bull" attacks.
This study is an embarrassment to this journal, and I say that as a technical journal editor. It is, indeed, a complete joke. They not only did not quantify, but completely discarded, over 50% of their data. This was an obvious (and unprofessional) attempt at using conclusion to mold facts, rather using facts to draw a conclusion. I cannot imagine who peer-reviewed this paper, if it was peer-reviewed at all.
Tony Solesky
6:57 am on Saturday, August 11, 2012
Truthsayer never cam up to me and I talked to every side there both days and the press. The truth is I am very honest. What the problem is people are trying to win a battle of wits meaning you are trying to get your way not find the way. You can often outwit someone but it is impossible to out honest someone. I will be happy to respond to any and all questions about what things do and don't compare to or what I have said why I say it and I will continue to do it in my own
name in the open public.
Mike
3:20 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
For all my documented disagreement, I commend your willingness to discuss it.
Adrianne
10:15 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
Dear Mr. Solesky. I am not trying to win a battle of wits with you or anyone else. I want you live in peace, really, I do. I'm sorry about your son, but my dog harmed no one. No one. Neither did tens of thousands of others in this state and millions across the country. My dog is my loving pet, not a gun, not a swimming pool, not a car, not a stick of dynamite. I have nothing to ask you so I don't need any answers. I don't want to be part of your 15 minutes of fame. But I am stuck with you being a part of life. I would really like this hateful vindiction against me and thousands of other dog owners like me to stop, so we need not live in constant fear of being forced to give up a family member or lose a home. Your emails clearly indicate it's about winning and losing for you. For me, it's about keeping my family. You are happy with the court ruling because you get what you want; your pound of flesh. it doesn't seem to matter it comes at a very high cost to many innocent people like me.
Lalalo
5:07 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Mr. Solesky, you have not responded to Adrianne who matches my feelings and thoughts. I do have to add that you seem to think very highly of yourself. Me, I don't have children. I lost a baby. I have two dogs, they are my family. You are right, you seem to know a lot, a lot!
Tony Solesky
7:58 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
lalalo, Adrianne did not wish me to respond to her but if you repost the question in your name I wil do my best. But I still don't know why the Animal groups don't conduct a forum or podcast where I can respond to all of your questions. I really am at a disadvantage to write(spell and some things may be facts but then others talk about my motovations and how can I really respond to that true or not how could anybody. I mean half of the intelligent comments that some make are wrapped in accusation that even if true don't advance the conversation. I don't of many post where I have been sarcastic but if and where I have it is not without provocation. Still I don't care but doesn't anyone have the ability to do conduct this in a web or podcast? Much of the comments here would be reasonalbe if they were fact of our case. It seems people are focused on me suing a Landlord who no one yet who knows the story and I mean no one who knows does not think that it is in order. Then because the dog was a Pitbull without dispute from it's owner and so were the others in Marylands Highest court that you all believe that because I support the decision that that means that I took my magic wand and got them to say hey this guy is a genius. Lets go with what he thinks. Yes I support the court. Yes I believe in holding landlord responsible. Why do they want to kick people out for or not let them keep pets for. Because they do not want to be responsible so then they own the property who am I?
Tony Solesky
8:11 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Really even I get mired down in my own misspelling and sentences. I have no defenses to offer but your indulgences. Still I support the Court yes. NO I can not make the special session not come up with something that is their doing. I cannot command the court.to bring suit, and being sucessful in a suit are two different things. Then their is a motion to reconsider I have no control suppose they change. What does it mean now they are the best ever. I have my motives, I have my beliefs and my judgements and convictions and motivated by them I have started the question and from that as Colleen has said will come law and change and as sure as I didn't make the ruling of the court Colleen is correct nor will I be the one whose legacy is the new law nor will I be the Landlord who kicked people out or the guy who killed your dog. My legacy is I will be the guy who said somebody needs to get off their ass and bring this run away train to a halt. I didn't start it and I can't finish it I an just a guy who tried to take the wheel of a bus with no driver and bring it to a stop. I don;t like what happened to my son and I don't like what can happen to your dogs now lets get it solved.
Tony Solesky
5:18 pm on Saturday, August 11, 2012
For anyone wondering there were two Pitbull dogs in the pen but only one a male escaped twice and got the two boys. The dog was identified because of the blood on it coat and teeth. Real funny stuff for Irene and me
Tony Solesky
5:48 am on Sunday, August 12, 2012
Brook,
In critical thinking you have to have a control. How many breeds never kill? How many breeds of greater population never kill? How many breeds bite? 100% they all do. Of those that bite how many maim? How many that maim end in life altering injury? How many end in death. How about attacks on other animals? I do what I do without any predjudice toward PitBulls but with the knowledge that in the pursuit of dog ownership this and a few other breeds visit a undue and comparatively inordinate risk compared to other dogs where the controling factor with 165 out of maybe 180 recognized breeds is non ever kill or maim or permanetly disfigure. You are arguing the specific issue into the general issue. That is not critical thinking (although I truly belive you are being sincere) that is a debating tatic. Your approach does not pass the fundementals of risk accessment and fatality/injury for even a car seat or a crib or a window blind in a two week period not withstanding a one year watch dog study on these items.
Mike
8:36 am on Sunday, August 12, 2012
Tony, while I am sympathetic to anyone so terribly hurt as your child was, your lawyer's letter to the editor made it EXTREMELY clear that his concern was getting a settlement paid, not getting it paid by the party responsible for controlling the dog.
This is not justice. It is:
1. An old legal approach: replacing someone who SHOULD pay with someone who CAN
2. The creation of a new victim
Had he failed in suing the landlord, he'd be suing EVERYONE (the people of the state of Maryland) to ensure he and you were paid, and as before, regardless of each's (non) responsibility for what happened.
I ask that you step back and honestly face this reality.
Now I ask:
1. Had your lawyer sued the state (me, and millions of others who had nothing to do with the incident) would you have stopped him, or would you have allowed him to make us all YOUR victims?
2. Since you believe pit bulls are so inherently dangerous, were you aware of the presence of the animals? If so, aren't you the second most liable party, not the landlord, for not securing your family from the danger?
3. If you were unaware of the presence of the dogs, how is it that you failed in your due-diligence to become aware?
4. If the landlord was unaware of the inherent danger of the breed as claimed by you, what pre-emptive steps did you take to inform him of the danger of the breed or the pen in question?
5. What $ amount do you assign to YOUR liability here?
I don't claim to know, I'm asking.
Mike
8:42 am on Sunday, August 12, 2012
Side comment to Patch:
Do you think "Letter to the Editor: Dog Days of Summer" is appropriate for this matter? Seems a bit too cutesy for a subject this grave.
Tony Solesky
9:34 am on Sunday, August 12, 2012
MIKE,
All easy questions. "Uncompensated Risk" That is when we the taxpayer pick up the tab without a suit for people who do no have assets equal to the harm they cause. No I would not sue the taxpayer even though in a suit we have a better chance then just paying for people who pose, foster or enable the harm. 2) I was unaware of the Pitbulls as is in the Public record in addition unlike any other threat a dog is autonomous so unlike a pool that can't leave your property to drown a child a Pitbull can to maul or kill my child.
Mike
2:56 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
I asked whether you would STOP your lawyer if he wanted to sue the state. You didn't answer the question. If you would, good for you.
A PEN with pitbulls in it is not autonomous.
Mike
3:08 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
BTW, your lawyer's letter to the Editor was (I suspect unintentionally) candid about the primary concern being getting the money. Since the dog owner was apparently out, that meant finding someone else to pay.
What's the gripe with the landlord to justify financial responsibility? Did he fraudulently lie and tell you no one had a dog? Is the claim that he failed to secure someone else's dog? If his tenant hit you over the head with a piece of furniture from a furnished rental, is that the landlord's fault?
It seems very clear your lawyer either thinks so (less likely) or doesn't care (more likely) so long as someone has a deep enough pocket.
Tony Solesky
9:43 am on Sunday, August 12, 2012
this is for questions 2 and 3. The Autonomy of a hazard makes due diligence an arguement that could not apply in my case (as a Human much less court) against anything you do on your private property unaccessable to my due diligence anyway but autonomy of the hazard leaving your property that is really not applicable. 4) we claimed they were aware and further since public opinion right or wrong was that Pitbulls are dangerous ignorance could not be claimed above all other breeds because even the judge in the decent against us said as much
Mike
2:54 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
"since public opinion right or wrong was that Pitbulls are dangerous ignorance could not be claimed above all other breeds because even the judge in the decent against us said as much"
This is utter garbage. How do you feel about witch trials? The judge saying makes it no more true than "public opinion," whatever that even is.
Mike
3:02 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
A PEN with pitbulls in it is not autonomous.
Tony Solesky
9:47 am on Sunday, August 12, 2012
I actually had health insurance with a 5000 dollar deductable and of course loss of work ane a myriad of cost even I never assumed. kind of like when you buy a house and it nickel and dimes you or vacation that kind of thing. As well I have homeowers incase your dog attacks my kind ane I don't run a business out of my house as does a landlord where his clients don't have insurance but the banks client (me who pays until I own the house) does. WHat liability would you assign to me I will try and anwser?
Mike
2:59 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
I aked you what amount of liability you would assign to yourself. You didn't answer.
Did you sue the landlord for the full amount of your claim, passed on from the dog owner who got out on bankruptcy or other technicality? If so, why? Does that mean the dog owner was 100% responsible in your eyes, and the landlord was ALSO 100% responsible? Did your suit attempt to regain your deductible?
Why do I need to assign a liability to you for you to answer? What does my opinion have to do with yours?
Tony Solesky
10:22 am on Sunday, August 12, 2012
As far as the Sun Article. It is unfair for me to expect you to know all of the details of our case and thus to understand it in context. That is my job in all of this and why I have gotten this far. I am not burdened with having to overcome the facts, I am burdened with getting them out against false assumptions as I do. If I am allowed to continue you will find out why I support the application of our case to landlords who are the home owner as I would have been held as the homeowner. You want to loan your house to friends for a year. It is still your roof. You loan your car they get in an accident or run a red light with a speed camera, it all follows the car. You want to lease your house and make money in my neighborhood it is still your house. I think ,most people are defending their dogs which is not mine or the law suits point at all. Reread the article, Yes I support my attorneys application of the old law as you call it in mine and any other such cases because it is proper and fitting to withstand the fundementals of liability in just every other model of personal liability much less business ownership I have compared it to.
Tony Solesky
2:48 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
Rebeca, I don't know how I missed your comment but I don't wish to shame you but in fact you should be ashamed of your comment. There is no instance under the law, morally or ethecally that I have ever heard that where a person who has the right to control a situation is exercising common sense when they try to escape responsibility by not putting out the cause of a fire. In other words if you have a renter who store gasoline and plays with matches and your concern is that there could be a fire you are to make them remove the gas and prohibit matches not say I think somebody is going to get hurt but I won't be responsible if they do. That lease lacked common sense and common decency. For God sakes landlord prohibit changing the paint color smoking and all sorts of things. YOU ARE WRONG DEAD WRONG! Had the owner addressed her own concerns in a moral way we would have never heard of Tracey VS Solesky.
Colleen Carter
6:20 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
I keep trying to ignore the completely asinine things that you say, but it's too tempting!
How is allowing a dog in a lease lacking common sense or decency? There are 88 million dogs in America. No doubt a high percentage of these dog owners rent a home or an apartment. Owning a dog is not exactly the same thing as keeping gasoline and playing with matches.
Any breed of dog can be dangerous. The immorality here is that the dog was kept in such a manner that it became dangerous. It was treated cruelly, and that resulted in aggression. If we had laws that governed the amount of space that a dog must have in an enclosure, and prohibited long-term tethering or crating (and actually, Montgomery County does have such laws, and also has a VERY LOW number of dog aggression incidents with NO breed bans), THEN your case would never have existed. Maybe Baltimore should take a cue from Montgomery County. Laws such as this WORK! Breed bans and breed hysteria DO NOT WORK.
Mike
4:06 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
Kevin Dunne said: "The Solesky family did not bring suit because they hate pit bulls. The Solesky family brought suit because their son was nearly killed and someone should be held responsible for that."
And by 'held responsible' he means pay. And by 'someone' he means anyone with the money on whom he can pin the blame.
Adrianne
10:31 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
And unfortunately, as a result of the court ruling the "someone" that has to pay is thousands of innodent dog owners and their benign dogs.
Mike
4:10 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
And by the way, what is a "pit bull" anyway? Someone please explain to me the standard, repeatable, legally-sufficient procedures for making the yea/nay call on whether any given dog is a "pit bull."
Tony Solesky
7:19 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
Mike you seem to not respond to my comments. I really can say I don't knw your point. A dog is autonomous. I would not sue the tax payer. the tax payer as I stated has a better chance in a suit then outright allocation of our money when someone does not pay. I belive my son is entitiled to finacial compenstion because the landlord is runing a business and the dog was brought to the business location by their client. I as you know am a poor speller but you have seen me enugh on the news and the links to get my drift. Yes there is the standard for identifying a Pitbull it is the sameone you are using so how do you identify one, defend weather one exists or know that they do exist or can have a special session. BTW I am the one who made the arguement that they are not a breed if you look at the court record. How do you know a golden retriver is a Golden retriver? How do you know that a dog is a dog and not a cat?
Mike
8:27 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
"Yes there is the standard for identifying a Pitbull it is the sameone you are using so how do you identify one?"
I don't. I don't know what one is, and I don't know how to identify one for legal purposes or otherwise. If a standard exists, please state it or state that there is none in your view.
Mike
8:48 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
No worries about spelling, that's fine.
To be fair, I asked you some questions and while you mentioned them, you didn't answer them. A dog is autonomous, but the pen is not. Were you unaware of the pen and the presence of dogs? Did you check them out? Apparently everyone is responsible for doing due diligence for your family's welfare--to what extent are YOU responsible for doing the same? If you were attacked by a patient in your doctor's office, is your doctor responsible? The patient is his client, at his place of business?
How is the landlord 100% financially responsible as well as the dog owner being 100% responsible? With you being zero percent financially responsible.
The bit about your lawyer being paid is a dodge. Of course your lawyer works for money. But the justice system is INTENDED for justice. Your lawyer is supposed to argue for something fair (and claims to) but he's happy to make a victim of anyone he can if you get paid. Further, as you say he is your instrument, so I can criticize his stated intentions as yours (getting SOMEONE to pay) even if that means simply creating a new victim.
I don't know what a "pit bull" is. So, what's the procedure for the layman to assess a dog as such if the distinction is important? Surely you agree the legal mess remaining today is absurd on this front, yes?
The radio thing sounds interesting but I doubt I will have a timely opportunity anywhere soon.
Mike
8:54 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
And last, what is the landlord's failing that makes him responsible in your eyes? Not restraining the dog himself?
Not building a pen for the dog? It's not illegal to own a dog (though it may soon be, thanks to your lawyer's efforts) and it's not a legal requirement to create a pen for a dog.
Just saying it's "his business" is a bit absurd. If you're at your doctor's office and a patient attacks you in his waiting room, I guess you'd sue the doctor. Yeah, he failed to provide a security guard in the waiting room. If he did, and the guy shot the security guard and you, I suppose you'd sue him for failing to provide two security guards and issue you kevlar on the way in the door?
This is all about GETTING MONEY, regardless of who from and the extent to which he was truly negligent.
Mike
9:03 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
Your questions about "How do you know a golden retriver is a Golden retriver? How do you know that a dog is a dog and not a cat?" are good ones. I don't KNOW a golden retriever is such, nor what that is. For the purpose of saying what a dog looked like, it's useful. If I need to KNOW so I know when I can't rent a room to someone, I haven't the faintest notion of needed certainty.
I also couldn't look at a cat or a dog and know it was a domesticated variety versus various wild varieties, wolf hybrids, etc. Behavior would be my best clue. And if people have it as a pet and attest (and are the responsible parties), who am I to step in and say 'no', and based on what information? I'm a landlord so I have to be a dog expert and fortune-teller both?
Your standards seem hopelessly unreasonable. Everyone has to work miracles to protect you. What's your role in protecting you? And when is something just bad luck? And even if it isn't, why blame someone besides the owner of the dog?
Mike
9:09 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
One more perspective. What if a tenant has a gun? Is the landlord responsible in your eyes for anything the tenant does with that gun? Where does it end?
Chas Cherry
3:21 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
There is no standard since there is no such breed. This is a broad catchall for and breed or mix of breeds with muscle and a large blocky head. AKC does not have any breed with "pit bull" in it's description. There is an American Staffordshire Terrier and a Staffordshire Terrier Both of which are considered part of the "pit bull" type. You have to go to the smaller UKC to find a breed with "Pit Bull" in it's proper name.
Colleen Carter
6:26 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
A Golden Retriever is an AKC recognized breed that conforms to AKC breed standards, which are clearly written.
If you do not know the difference between a dog and a cat, then go back to the first grade.
A "pit bull" is not a defined breed. It is not recognized by the AKC, and it usually a mixed breed dog comprised of up to 10 different breeds. According to DNA tests that have been conducted in both Florida and Ohio, dogs visually identified as "pit bull" have very little breed commonality. They have been everything from a boxer/bulldog mix to a bullmastiff/lab mix, and everything in between.
Because of this, there is no way to compile accurate statistics of how many "pit bull" type dogs exist in the U.S., but using the definition (above), which is a visual identification of mixed breed, short-haired dogs over 40 pounds that are comprised of these 10 different breeds, most estimate that "pit bull type" dogs make up between 40% and 60% of the U.S. dog population. There are an estimated 88 million dogs in America. That would mean that "pit bull type" dogs number in excess of 35 million in the U.S. That is a LOT of dogs.
Even if every statistic about "pit bulls" from the dogbite website was correct (and they are not even close to correct), that would still mean that less than .0002% of all dogs that can be visually identified as a "pit bull" in America will show any aggression at any point in its life.
Now look up Baltimore gun statistics...
Tony Solesky
7:27 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
Mike if you would like contact apublic radio station and get us on as guest. I can anwser your questions with complete confidence. I know you do not have all the facts and so your conclusions are reasonable accordingly. That said I do have them and I support the court decision and I had to endorse the suit in the first place. Weather my attorney or firm or any lawyer does what they do for the reasons you say is money seems like the same reason I and my wife have jobs for money. In my case I support going after the landlord and so I hired someone that does that for money. If I didn;t it would not happen. This approach is completely with my blessing, The lawyer is merely aa instrument of my intentions.
Tony Solesky
7:36 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
Even though I know I do not spell well I am certain that I have put out enough content for someone who can to frame my arguement. I invite someone to read all of my post and fram it with correct spelling then I will tell you what I agree with or not and we can tweek it until everyone know my stance. I am not looking for agreement with my stance just clarity so that people can debate me accordingly. The point is the attorney is my doing and his approach is with my blessing so lets leave our feelings about his motovation out of an arguement about mine. They are not somehow mutually exclusive.
Tony Solesky
10:44 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
Mike, If you read your first post you will find I anwsered every single one of your questions. It seems you do not care for my answers and have decided that I am not answering them but remember more people read then post. As a result I have invited them to state my arguement inclkuding you and I will tweek it. You continue to ask questions about guns not dogs lawyers not me and talk about what you don't know. How can I control what you don;t know if you don;t find it in my response. If you don't agree landlords are a business that would make sense. then we would move to the nest topic. I say they are a business. I say yes they should be responsible for their clients. I say dogs are autonomous and require a higher standard of security.
Mike
11:02 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
You MENTION my questions and don't provide answers.
How about a direct answer to just three of them:
1. if a tenant has a gun, should the landlord be responsible for anything the tenant does with it, or that ever is done with it while the lease is in effect?
2. if a tenant of a furnished apartment hits you over the head with a lamp from that apartment, is it appropriate to sue the landlord?
3. If you are in your doctor's office and another patient assaults you, is the doctor responsible in your view?
Direct answers are easy. Number and a yes or no for each. Won't take any time at all and will make your position far more clear.
Regards,
Mike
Tony Solesky
11:00 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
I say I would not sue the taxpayer. I say we are talking dogs not guns autonomous threats guns can't leave safes. I say the attorney does my bidding in this case. I say that pursuing the landlord is exactly the same as a passenger in a car accidnet would pursue the driver even if the accidnet is the other car drivers fault. It is a subrogation as it should be. I am responsible for my employees actions, my subcontrators actions as a result I have require they have insurance. If they spill paint or break something I am gone after the claim is paid my my insurance company to make them whole and I am covered then insurance company goes after the subcontrators insurance company to make themselves whole and ultimately the insurance company who covered the subcontractor. As for how to identify a dog. In the court it is bassed on people who are recognized as experts to identify a dog by appearance as has been done for hundreds of years. dna will identify all dogs as wolfs because breeds aren't species they don't exist in nature. Put it this way a poodle has no nature that makes it want to mate only to other poodles. A breed is a man made and man matained dog through peoples actions on the dogs choice of mates to produce physical and mental apptitude. If you want a rum and coke drink you must mix them every time to get that result. All dog breeds are inherently what they are because breed mean inherent traits. Thus fighting dogs are inherently dangerous. It doesn't mean they are
Mike
11:10 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
If one of your employees just up and assaults someone, the courts may hold you liable or not, I don't know. But it isn't your fault, regardless of what the legal norms are. We're arguing here about what the law SHOULD be, not what it is.
Further, I'd love to see your approach to defending yourself if your employee assaulted someone and they were coming after you instead of your insurance company.
I'm predicting you'd sing a very different tune.
Brian
9:06 am on Monday, August 13, 2012
@Tony the problem I see with your statement is that the tenants are not employee of the landlord. The tenant is paying the landlord for use of a structure. How that structure is used is governed by the laws of the land. The landlord broke no law and should not be held responsible.
..... " I say that pursuing the landlord is exactly the same as a passenger in a car accidnet would pursue the driver even if the accidnet is the other car drivers fault"...
I would have to disagree with you on this point because the Driver is in control of the car as the landlord is in control of the house. The house did not cause the injuries. The car did. I dont see how they are the same.
Mary High
5:21 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
Just to clarify your opinion about dog DNA test. They don't come back as dogs are Wolves. I have had my dog DNA tested (by blood test, not saliva test.) To prove he's not a "pit bull". Cause by sight people thinks he is. He's a black lab/boxer mix. So that fact of someone looking at a dog and to know what it is. Expert or not, the human eye can not tell. My vet is someone that would be classified as an expert and even she wasn't sure. Oh and my dog was DNA test because of a court case. Not because he bit anyone, because I reside in a stupid township with a breed ban. Funny, one of our board members has a lab/boxer mix and her dog gets mistaken all the time too. Fighting dogs, were made by bad owners, not by any breed. It's what us HUMANS have done. Your not as smart as your trying to be Mr Solesky about this topic.
Tony Solesky
1:46 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Mary, I can agree that I am not so smart. That I find to be more and more true. You must be younger then me.
Jennifer G.
12:11 am on Wednesday, August 22, 2012
DNA tests do not identify all dogs as wolves. They can identify over 185 different breeds. Like Mary, I had my dog DNA tested. She has a large blocky head, broad chest, brindle coloring and many people have mistaken her for a "pit bull" mix. Turns out she is the product of a Neapolitan Mastiff and an English Springer Spaniel. However, "recognized experts" labeled her as a pitbull mix.
I take such issue with this assertion of yours that "all dogs are inherently what they are." I knew a Labrador Retriever that refused to swim. Lackland Airforce Base adopts out the dogs from their Military Working Dog program that don't have the drive to do what they are carefully bred to do. Rural shelters overflow with hound dogs that are abandoned or surrendered because they didn't make good hunting dogs. Some of the most horrific animal cruelty cases involve pit bulls who are not "game" and don't have that aggressive instinct that would make them a valuable fighting dog. Dogs are individuals.
I read your book and I am frustrated and saddened by the fact that the owner of the dog that attacked your son was the biggest POS on the planet. If I were writing a movie with a scumbag antagonist, I would model him after this guy. Yet this guy's irresponsibility and callousness is dictating the fate of thousands of dogs and owners.
Tony Solesky
11:07 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
bad or even mean or even viscious. It means that just like the Ocean is inherently dangerous to drown or a car to drive or a gun you must exercise certain judgement with them over a bath tub or golf cart or BB gun. I assure you I will be happy to discuss this with yu if you come up to me when I testify and introduce your self or if you can interest the news, TV or radio to have us in a public forum or read my free e-book www.dangerousbydefault.net I am out there come say high and we will talk or ask someon else to read my responses and see what they think I am saying.
Tony Solesky
11:20 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
Questions 1 2 and 3 YES I am a firm supporter of subrogation Yes to all three. Yes if my employee asaults somebody they should hold me responsible under the law and in meeting that resonsiblity I will be cleared of wrong doing. The victim will be made whole and the insurance company who assumes risk by will get there money from the party whose actions caused the whole event. Yes I support and position myself in life this way. I support the courts decision, I ursued it on these terms for this outcome yes to all.
Mike
12:58 am on Monday, August 13, 2012
Thanks, this helps greatly. I appreciate your candor and clarity on the subject. While I think your position is both:
1. immoral
and
2. the sort of insanity that leads to skyrocketing insurance rates (by de-coupling legal responsibility from the truly negligent, passing it on to the un-involved--socializing risk by force)
I nonetheless appreciate that you are not mincing words about it. Most of the people who pitch such positions, in my experience, hide behind a lot of verbiage in an attempt to avoid being clear about the implications of their stances. You will at least say you think it's right to sue a landlord if his tenant hits you with a lamp.
In addition to what I see as the clear innocence and lack of negligence in all three cases on the part of the landlords and the doctor, one must wonder what happens next? (Oh, please let me have the good fortune of being assaulted in a place of business rather than on the street. And if it does happen on the street, please drag me into a swanky office so I can sue them, rather than risk getting shafted by an indigent assailant.)
Still, my heart goes out to your family--I know you have been through a very painful, perhaps continuing ordeal. I appreciate your civil and frank discussion, no matter how much we disagree.
Regards,
Mike
Mike
11:23 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
Tony, let's improve a question. Let's make the gun autonomous in question 1 above.
1. if a tenant has a gun, should the landlord be held responsible if the tenant's child gets possession of the gun, takes it out to the street, and shoots someone?
That, plus answers to the other two, will greatly help me understand your position. And others as well I hope.
Please give a YES or NO to each. Any explanation beyond that is fine, but since you think you are answering and I think you aren't, let's keep that part simple and clear.
Regards,
Mike
Tony Solesky
11:32 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
Unfortunately a gun can't be autonomous and is just a poor anology which is like a repeating decimal where the math is flawed but if I get the contest correct- NO
And I would support someones attempt to try and make the landlord accountable because they would fail in the courts which is a huge point in all of this. I support your attempts to ask me. I love the questions for many readers to see with my name next to them and my way of thinking and doing the business of business, life honesty and friendship.
Mike
1:03 am on Monday, August 13, 2012
It's not a poor analogy. IT's a great analogy. Technically, the gun is not autonomous. But the gun, say, in the hands of a three year old, can now leave the rented residence and make its way to an off-site victim, all without any intervention by an adult. The gun can travel without adult supervision at that point, just like a dog can.
Makes one wonder why this answer was 'no' when the others were 'yes.' I don't see where you flip the switch and suddenly aren't holding the landlord responsible for the gun that got loose from his tenant.
A similar question would come if somone broke in and STOLE the gun from the tenant, and then assaulted someone with it.
Tony Solesky
11:34 pm on Sunday, August 12, 2012
It should say if I get the "context" not (contest )correct
Tony Solesky
1:56 am on Monday, August 13, 2012
Mike Thank you for your candor as well. You seem to know alot about what you don't know and of course I have advanced this this far on what I do know. As a result your anologies fall short. The case is exactly what it is and as I said in the begining in context of this case and it's application to landlords I support strict liability. I am sure you do not know what strict liability actually is but to give you prespective I bet you think that that meant that I won my case against the landlord. ust so you know any new legislation does not affect my case) No Mike all strict liabilty means is I don't have tp prove that a gun or a pool or a Pitbull is dangerous. I still have to prove that the circumstances that lead to my sons injuries where as a result of neglignece on the part of the dog owner or landlord. Ye I will still have to prove my case just not that Pitbulls are inherently dangerous. Thank you for bring a shining example of the larger public who thinks they know what is going on. In many cases in fact most I am the same when I don't know the material. Hopefully now the readers will have benefited from our talk. All My Best Tony Solesky
Mike
2:07 am on Monday, August 13, 2012
LOL, you will please note that I never claimed to know a great deal about your particular case, only that the implications of what you were saying strike me as immoral and nonsensical, punishing the innocent under force of law.
And these very inferences of mine proved true. Your advocacy of punishing the landlords and doctors in my three questions make it altogether clear. So, while I agree with you that there are many particulars about your case I don't know, the implications of some aspects that concerned me were just as I suspected, and that is much of what I wished to bring to light.
Since your concerns (in my hypotheticals 1-3) mirror your lawyer's statements about being primarily being concerned about setting up an insurance or other structure to ensure victims are compensated (even if payment comes from those not truly responsible), one is left wondering:
1. What, aside from OWNING a house or a business, is the particular act of negligence on the part of the landlord in my 3 scenarios? What DIDN'T the landlord and the doctor do that your notion of a "reasonable" person would do? Or, are they just a convenient structure for the insurance?
2. If you want such insurance to exist, why not buy your own policy that covers all such damages and contingencies, with as small a deductible as you like? If that's the effective coverage you wish to see exist, why not just buy it yourself? Instead of everyone buying it by increased rent, doctor bills, etc?
Mike
Mike
3:16 am on Monday, August 13, 2012
Last, I did know what strict liability is (at least as how you have described it, which matches my understanding from reading over the last few days). It simply hasn't been my main focus. My focus has been what I discussed. What you see as collecting damages from the guilty I see as punishing the innocent. This is very clear now, from the 3 examples where you said the landlord/landlord/doctor would be rightfully sued, I said they hadn't been negligent.
Good thing is I think we've moved a long way forward in understanding one another's positions. I still don't understand what specific shortcoming you see on the part of the landlord/landlord/doctor in my 3 examples, but at least I see your verdict. That's progress toward understanding.
Regards,
Mike
Tony Solesky
5:58 am on Monday, August 13, 2012
Mike,
If the moderator said that they are going to no longer allow posting on this site and that they were going to delete every post except two and that we each got to keep one I would for go mine and choose your last two post be posted. I think they best represent the motovations and beliefs of those in oposition to what I am doing, the way I am doing it and who I am getting to do my legal bidding. It is important to know that some people see this as punishment. If they said I can choose to delete all of yours or all of mine but I had to delete all of one or the other, I would leave all of yours and delete mine to get your message out. Your messages suggest many things, that you are not a landlord, that you are white, that your use of the name Mike with no last name to make it appear that these feeling of vulnerability are somehow more intellecually more masculine if you use the name Mike. That the punishment you write about is really about the innocent animals and you are defending these innocent animals against those people who would do what Tony Solesky of Towson Maryland is doing. I love you maam
Mike
12:25 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
Tony,
Do you know what on Earth that post was about? I will give you the benefit of the doubt that what I read there (5:58 AM comment by a "Tony Solesky") was not your intent or not your doing, or some sort of joke. I have seen prior examples where Patch's architecture allowed duplicate screen names to comment. At present I have trouble believing the truly bizarre comment above my name/sex/race is from the person to whom I have been speaking up to now.
Circling back to before, what I see as "punishing the innocent" is holding someone financially accountable for damages for which he had no responsibility in the eyes of any honest judge.
I see a landlord whose tenant hits someone with a lamp from a furnished apartment at being an INNOCENT. He has no business being held liable for an assault by a tenant.
I see an orthopaedic whose patient assaults another patient in his waiting room as an innocent. Suing that landlord and doctor, holding them "responsible", as "the real" Tony Solesky has advocated above, seems absurdly illogical and hopelessly immoral.
It strikes me merely as a means to create a socialized insurance that ignores fault, removes rewards and punishments of truly responsible behavior, and further bankrupts us all. It will cause widespread harm to people and dogs both. It creates a new victim. Will Tony Solesky's offer his insurance to make all those victims whole?
Regards,
Mike
Mike
12:31 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
Oops, poor editing. Last sentence above should read: "Will Tony Solesky offer his insurance to make all those victims whole?"
Colleen Carter
6:32 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
Mike, this man is an UNBELIEVABLE misogynist. He has actually stated that mostly women oppose him because women are too emotional for rational thought about the matter. So, if you oppose him, you must be a woman.
I suppose it's hard for him to understand (even thought it's right in front of his face), that most of the women with whom he interacts are more educate, successful, literate, and intelligent than himself. Which I suppose is usually the root for misogyny, but it is nonetheless unacceptable.
See, by "outing" you as a woman (and I'm sure you are most likely male), he thinks he is insulting you. Very telling...
Tony Solesky
1:52 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Colleen,
Actually I think women are the single most exploited people on earth among all races creeds and colors. Your insights that I am not loving of women are obscured however by your emotions. Colleen I even love you because by this debate their will be a solution that would have otherwise never come to pass.
Colleen Carter
4:14 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Excuse me, but you accused a person as posing as a man (assuming she was a woman) in order to appear "intellectually more masculine".
Why would any woman want to appear "intellectually more masculine".
Nothing personal, but I am more educated than you, have no doubt that I make far more money than you, am (I'm sorry, but it's obvious) far more intelligent and literate than you are, and I am a woman and you are a man. Why in the WORLD would you think that intelligence and masculinity are at ALL RELATED? And why would you think that posing as man would make any woman more credible?
You exposed your true colors here, and you can attempt double talk all you want (please see the intelligence comment above), but there's no going back.
And trust me, I'm NOT EXPLOITED.
Colleen Carter
4:15 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
And PLEASE don't "love me". That really skeeves me. Thank you.
Tony Solesky
12:46 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
Brian, I am saying first that the bank owns my home as a matter of good business requires us all to have Homeowners Insurance to protect their asset. That means weather you wnat to or not you extend coverage to the 30 % of Marylanders who rent and could sue you if your kid hit their kid with a bat. forget suing all the time just pay a claim. Now if the renter kid hits your kid no such recovery. If both are renters then the taxpayer picks up the bill. The landlord is fostering this exposure and crating the unequal yoking of us by visiting his tenates, upon us but not folowing the same basic business pratices that the 70% of us do. The dog is the product and it has unlike anyother property know autonomy to leave its location an visit a harm. The level for securing such a threat must be strict liability to the owner or anyone who fosters or enables that threat.
Brian
8:01 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Just as a bank force insurance on the homeowners to protect their asset, landlord have insurance to protect their asset, the structure.
Mike
1:06 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
Tony Solesky, would you mind denying/confirming the bizarre comments above about my race/sex/etc amidst your other comments? (Apologies if you have done so already and I missed it, but I've tried to check everything and don't see it.)
Second, Tony, you said "The landlord is fostering this exposure and crating the unequal yoking of us by visiting his tenates, upon us but not folowing the same basic business pratices that the 70% of us do."
I think where we diverge is that you seek to divorce real individual culpability from the obligation to cover damages. For you, what appears important is NOT that the person who is negligent or causes harm is liable for damages, but that damages are covered by SOMEONE. (Never mind that using government force to collect payment for damages from an innocent is just creating new, uncompensated victims.)
This is why I don't buy your statement that you would stop your lawyer from suing the taxpayer. It's nice to say you wouldn't, and you may well believe you would not. But the concept is the same as what you do advocate: transferring liability from the guilty who cannot pay to the innocent who can.
Whether that occurs by having government act as the insurance carrier by force of law, or by effectively mandating that all people pay for private insurance protection from spurious lawsuits, the result is the same IN THAT it moves liability from the guilty to the innocent.
Making life is an "all you can eat" sue-fest.
Tony Solesky
4:48 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
Sorry Mike, I see what you right and I disagree with you a mortgage is a condition where a bank turns over complete control of the property to all uses and modifications and retains only repo rights with lapse in payment. It also requires Homeowners or it will buy it and put it on your mortgage. The landlord leases and does not give up all rights cant paint it the way you want cant put in a club basement it is not your property. You are exactly the same as a renter as if one of my guest at a invitation party had a dog that bit you. or my son had a dog that bit you. Why should I be responsible for my son under your therory?
Mike
5:08 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
Yes, I agree a mortgage does not turn over complete control. The contract both parties enter into rightly can include a requirement for the borrower to buy homeowner's insurance. Free of liens, you should be able to drop it if you wish. No problem. Same with a landlord in that regard.
However, someone's PRESENCE in or on your property should not make you liable for anything criminal or negligent that HE does.
If a homeowner or his guest stabs someone, the bank who lent him the money has no role in that, is not to blame in any way, and should not be culpable for damages.
Likewise, a landlord who rents a furnished apartment to someone should not be liable for damages if his tenant hits someone over the head with a lamp that happens to be the landlord's property.
If the landlord rents the property and fails to disclose to the tenant that there is a time bomb in the closet, which explodes and kills a guest before the tenant even knows it's there, THEN you start getting into looking at recklessness and liability on the part of the landlord. The harm was CAUSED by HIM, not by the unwitting tenant.
Under my theory, you would be potentially responsible for your son's dog bite because your son is a minor and cannot take responsibility for the dog in the first place. It's YOUR dog to manage, not your son's. (If the dog bite was self-defense let's say, you shouldn't be liable either.)
But unlike your son, the homeowner and landlord are adults.
Mike
5:24 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
Beyond that, let's skip the son and look at your dog in your house. If it bites someone who attacks or provokes it in your house, why should you be liable for the self-defense bite? You did nothing wrong. (Neither did your landlord, your bank, your mom or your business partner, all of whom should be equally free from ANY claims for damages.)
Then you get into the messier stuff. What reasonable steps must you take with your guests if you have a dog? If you tell them honestly and correctly you have a dog that's never been a problem and ask if they're comfortable with that, they are taking on a certain the reasonable risk themselves for simply being in the presence of a dog. If something happens, you should work, as friends, who should pay what. If you have your own medical or homeowner's insurance to cover just such things, great. I encourage people to have it. If not, it's simply DEBATABLE who is responsible and for what percentage, and if it gets nasty it can be settled in court.
But 100% pre-judging the dog, without any question, like it was a ridiculously high-risk item, and dismissing any responsibility people willingly sign up to when putting themselves knowingly in its presence, is absurd. A perfectly-up-to-code bathroom or a kitchen is probably far more statistically dangerous than any dog, given no more information than the breed.
Tony Solesky
5:11 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
Also everyone I have written a free for the public e-book about all of this. I did that for the money also because what you can learn from it is priceless. It has pictures of my sons injuries and many facts about the landlord and the dog owner and why I sued. Remeber no one made me sue it is all my doing. www.dangerousbydefault.net
Tony Solesky
5:20 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
Mike, All excellent points and under strict liability are the exact defenses that apply. Strict liability is in no way menat to mean that you are guilty of negligence regardless. It is not absolute liability. I have given yoiu many examples and of course you have rwad them but it seems you disagree under you understanding of strict liability not it's application. As I said I support someones right to sue for all of the other stupid examples because they would all be thrown out of court. You asked me to anwser yes or no. Perhaps you should read the free e-book I wrote about all of this. It has pictures soon you will see I am in Annapolis fighting for your points and have been cast as something I am not by those who are exploiting and controling public ingnorance. Would you have ever believed that the ASPCA filed a amicus brief against a 10 year old child with disfiguring injuries and 7 blood transfusions. www.dangerousbydefault.net
Mike
5:47 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
HMMM, it sounds like we may have talked past each other in the three examples. Can you re-affirm your answer to each of:
1. if a tenant has a gun, should the landlord be responsible for anything the tenant does with it, or that ever is done with it while the lease is in effect?
2. if a tenant of a furnished apartment hits you over the head with a lamp from that apartment, is it appropriate to sue the landlord?
3. If you are in your doctor's office and another patient assaults you, is the doctor responsible in your view?
Before, you appeared to say YES/YES/YES. Where I think it's clearly NO/NO/NO. Is your position really YES/YES/YES?
I'm starting to think you may be so wrapped up in the ugly technical details of law, versus a layman's notion of justice, that we may be miscommunicating.
Mike
5:54 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
More on potential miscommunication: I am saying the OUTCOME should be NO/NO/NO, and further, that morally upright people will not pursue damages from such clearly innocent parties.
It SOUNDS like you may have said YES/YES/YES in addressing whether the courts should HEAR cases, or some other middlin' legal technicality (which may be VERY significant) but misleading, if you consider the suits to be ALLOWABLE but also that they should be clear losers for the plaintiffs.
Ronald
5:01 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Mike - The law is the law is the law. There is no justice in the courts - only the rule of law.
1-If the gun was left unsafeguarded and accesable for anyone to use then YES there is liability and they should pay.
2-Totally absurd question given the context of this blog.
3-If the doctor's office was a conducive setting for the assault and the doctor did nothing about it then yes. Doctor's should be sued when they force patients to sit and wait for hours before their scheduled appointments. It depends on the case.
This was an uncontrolled dog that did significant harm.
Mike
5:28 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
BTW Tony, quick aside, did somone create another account with your name and make the bizarre (they seem bizarre to me, anyway) comments about my race/sex/etc? If somone is posting as you it's good to know. (We don't want you to be wrongly held liable for libel, LOL.) If you posted it, I'm dying to find out what I'm missing and what the point was.
Tony Solesky
5:50 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
Mike, I can only say you are geting warmer but you are a Monday morning Quarterback. I asked my Senator what I had to do to get something done to stop what happened to my son from happening to someone else. I endorse and eve micro manage to a degree all of the directions. You really at this point need to take the time to read my sons account on page thirtyfive of the e-book. Then please don't take this wrong but do take it exactly the way I mean it. Get off of your ass and get a bill or a law passed that support your view that is what I have done gotten off my ass put myself out there and done something if it is wrong there must be something that is right somewhere about it. Why won't you work to get that part changed so it will be perfect. I have no ownership of perfecting a bill only that I have moved something to this level of debate and change peoples perceptions and fostered vigalance even if by the threat of a law suit. Please take five years of your life and help advance the stuff that is right with what I have done against the stuff I have done wrong in your eyes. Mike there just comes a time when you have to grab a hose and fight the fire as my dad would say. Otherwise he would tell the Police to ask those people who are onlookers to stay back at a safe distance and talk among yourselves we have a fire to fight. I plead with you to read my sons account pg 35 www.dangerousbydefault.net
Mike
6:17 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
You might be surprised how much work I have done the last 5 years to try to make laws better, get better people in office, etc.
I agree I should read your ebook, but a few of my questions seem like they should be quick and easy to answer quickly and I'm still confused by some of what you say. I get the sense you are lost down in legal technicality and your particular case, where I am trying to get the "it ought to be this way" stuff settled at a high-level, before getting lost in the detail of what legal machinery might accomplish that high-level goal. (See further notes on miscommunication.)
Also, there is an old saying that "tough cases make for bad law" and I get the sense that may be happening here. Frequently that happens EITHER WAY things get decided, which really stinks.
One note--your comment:
"Would you have ever believed that the ASPCA filed a amicus brief against a 10 year old child with disfiguring injuries and 7 blood transfusions"
is a cheap shot. First, as you say, some things are in your son's name but are coming from you. Second, not everything can be solved by law. Some things are just bad situations. IF bad law arises from a case that's just an unfortunate set of events, it's still bad law and deserves opposition. There is no moral trump-card if a bad law is pushed in the name of a truly unfortunate victim, in fact, arguably the reverse.
Last, will.you please deny/confirm/explain the confusing discussion of my race/sex/etc?
Tony Solesky
5:55 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
Mike you need to read my free e-book and then reread all of my post. The whole thing will take you 4 hours including rereading the post. Then you will have a frame of reference otherwise I am disadvantaged by your presumtions
Tony Solesky
7:08 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
Mike,
I would agree there is no moral trump card. Yes I wrote that at 5:58 and I am perplexed you don't understand it as you are certain you understand everything else about my moltivations. ( I don;t mean that mean, just a fair point) yes If you gave me a last name I may not be surprised as I could verify you assertions to what you have done and in fact it may make my effort miniscule by comparision. In the end I am out there, I am up front and I support all of the directions I am taking and I am grateful for the focus it brought to this issue, I am not in it to win a particular point but to change things even if all I have done is wrong if being wrong caused others to do it right it was a good quest this is not an ego trip. Let me restate as it pertains to Landlords , tenantes and dogs I support the courts ruling and I think it is good law. It is what I asked for and at some level I would assume the greater number of the 17 judges it went before saw it my way even if for reasons that served their industry, but then that could be said of all Judgements and of course if it is bad law call your delegate to change it and it will continue to be ironed out on the peoples behalf. I cannot know what is in the minds of the Judges or attorneys who sue or dogs that bite or people that own them and so I realized under one free bite I could not know what is in the mind of the dog owner or Landlord Strict Liability cut to the chase in my view and so that is my position.
Mike
10:41 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
Tony Solesky said: "Your messages suggest many things, that you are not a landlord, that you are white, that your use of the name Mike with no last name to make it appear that these feeling of vulnerability are somehow more intellecually more masculine if you use the name Mike. That the punishment you write about is really about the innocent animals and you are defending these innocent animals against those people who would do what Tony Solesky of Towson Maryland is doing. I love you maam"
Tony, with all due respect, this is truly ...bizarre.
Tony Solesky
11:44 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
Mike,
I just got in from my boat. I am heading to bed. what I wrote is exactly as I want it to be. What I can say to you on all of this is merely a repeat of my same theme. You have made determinations about my motivations for suing and weather you believe I would do what I say, for the reasons I say. I am not offended at all but really How shall I respond? I put it out there ,is all I can do. You say the ASPCA comment is a cheap shot yet it is exactly what I felt what they did was- a cheap sho,t to advance the business intrests of the dog industry rather then to portect animals from abuse and provide shelter and care. Irene and I had no idea in our wildest dreams they were involved in the bussiness of dogs and Lawyers and the like. No I do not donate to them anymore because I wrongly assumed they would have little or no concern about what animals we can or cannot own, only that what ever we do own, that it is cared for or put down in a humane manner. I was wrong but again my view. They knew what my case was about and what happened and they shattered my understanding of what they are involved in. If that is what they do, I cannot now plead ignorance so if it happened again, no I would not be shocked. Again all I can do is share my stance and hope that were it is correct it will prevail and where it is wrong it will be corrected. This is a Quest for me based on my reaction to what happened to my son in the hope of preventing it happening again to the best of my ability and
Ronald
4:54 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
God Bless and keep it up.
Tony Solesky
11:52 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012
I had to seek legal advice to institue my beliefs in the public policy. Why do I support holding Landlord accountable. Because I view them as a business and their tenants as their subcontrator. When I tell you that you tell me why it is not a plausable legal attachment but I was not concerned with the law at that point in the conversation or weather I can apply that view in law. You request my peronal view and then hold it to the legal standard. You get my legal view and hold it to a moral standard. You don't maintain context. It seems you are debating not fact finding. Maybe you are an attorney. Maybe you had a dog in this fight. These things I cannot know because you are just Mike here. So I respond as best I can because I enjoy the chance and the platform and that people may be motivated to do something as well. See You in the morning shift. Tony Solesky
Brian
10:08 am on Tuesday, August 14, 2012
So Tony, you view tenant as subcontractors. As subcontractors, what job are they performing for the landlord? Do you see all renters as subcontractors? I am trying to understand your position here.
Tony Solesky
12:59 pm on Tuesday, August 14, 2012
Brian, I view myself as a mortgage holder engage in being a part of the neighbor fabric that makes it a nice place to leave where I am equally yoked to other resident mortgage holders who are equally engaged. I am doing this by borrowing money and in the course of that I learned how a business insures or protects itself from exposure will I pursue my desire to live in the sanctuary of my home and community. I view tha Landlord as a business engage in finding people a place to live and giving them access to my community by purchasing a mortgage so they can do business on it. I see the Mortgage holder as the one that chooses which direction he decides to engage in the neighborhood unless they turn full and complete control over to the tenate as does the bank to the Mortgage holder. Forget dogs I see absentee Landlords as the front lines of community break down for many other poor community conditions. My sons mauling is just one more example. If you live their and your dog mauls my kid I have recourse but if you don't livee their and your tenates dog bites my kid I don't doesn't work for me. I am responsible for all that goes on under my roof and I expect the same of the landlord becuase it is their roof. You know like a car the insurance follows the car and nobody questions that. Meaning I can drive your car as long as I have a License and no insurance and if I reck or run a red light it follows the title holder. That is the principle of my position in spirit.
Brian
8:39 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
You have just confirmed what most thought here was your motivation. You want recourse. "...your tenate's dog bite my kid I dont ..." I will assume that you mean you dont have recourse. Well bud you do have recourse. SUE the owner of the dog. As you said you want recourse. It appears to me since the tenant out smarted your lawyer, your lawyer wants to go after the deep pockets of the landlord to get your recourse.
I have empathy for your situation. I am sorry for the pain you are going through.
SO when the landlord files bankruptcy, will you then go after the Homeowners association, then the state for allowing the Landlord to own a home in YOUR neighborhood?
I notice you think the landlord does not turn complete control over to the tenant. The only control the landlord maintains is the structure and the mortgage,if there is one in place. Dont blame the landlord because his client is irresponsible.
I dont blame you for letting your child get in a position of being attacked. As ridiculous as this sounds, that is what you are doing here. The landlord has the least amount of responsibility here of all the parties involved, including yourself.
Tony Solesky
1:16 pm on Tuesday, August 14, 2012
Also Thank you to everyone who tolerates my spelling I am sure at this point you all know it is not a indicator of weather or not I understand the material but just how to write about it. I think thanks to the texting age I am understood by coincidence
Ronald
4:52 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Spelling not the issue. Keep contributing to the discussion and take care.
savethem
3:21 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
Pretty sad. I get that dog owners should be liable if their dog bites. That's part of being a responsible dog owner. But I don't think a landlord should be burdened with the responsibility of reading people's and dog's minds. As far as I know, it can't be done. Granted, the dog owner in the case of Solesky was horribly wrong but you don't pass laws or make decisions on one incident. There are so many responsible pit bull owners and these dogs truly get persecuted in the media. It's acceptable, apparently, to call any dog attack a pit bull attack, even if the dog was not a pit bull. You ask 50 people and you will get many different answers, depending on where you live, as to what is a pit bull and a pit bull type dog. Pit bull is such a generic term and dogs are mislabeled in shelters and in the media intentionally and unintentionally. Hopefully, they will be able to come up with a fair decision to overturn the horribly discriminatory decision based on one incident. What a shame.
Karl Schuub
3:52 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
Most landlords don't allow pets anyway so the affect will be nearly zero. I don't understand this outrage at absolute financial liability if you're secure regarding your pet's behaviors. Nor do I think we should treat a chihuahua and a pit bull, pit bull mix, or any of the other fighting breeds the same way - that'd be silly. There's no evidence a chihuahua is a danger but there's plenty of evidence that pits are. It's just plain silly - like comparing a persian cat to a tiger really. I do understand if the ruling stands it will mean many more dogs won't find homes and may be euthanized and many more humans won't seek pit bull or mixes, but to be honest is that so bad? I can remember a time when there were virtually no pit bulls, now if you walk into any shelter it's almost all you see. If you truly care about animals it would make more sense to find a way to drive down pit bull ownership because these dogs are abused and abandoned more than any other breed and not by a little bit either.
Colleen Carter
12:04 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
The reason you see more "pit bull type" dogs than any other is because "pit bull type" dogs are, essentially, mutts comprised of about 10 different breeds that make up between 40% and 60% of the U.S. dog population. The identification is subjective, and DNA tests have proven that dogs identified as "pit bull" by animal professionals share no breed commonality in 80% of cases. With no breed commonality, there can be no inherency. "Fighting breeds" does not include boxers (one of the most common in "pit bull" mixes), does it? So, how are dogs that are primarily boxer identified as "pit bull" in so many cases?
Additionally, 40% - 60% of the dog population would reasonably be responsible for 40% - 60% of dog aggression incidents. Actually, dogs labeled "pit bull" are responsible for far less, so put in terms of incidents related to number of dogs, they are quite safe animals.
There is no evidence that pit bulls are more dangerous than any other breed. The CDC and the American Veterinary Medical Association concluded in a 10-year study that "neither pit bull-type dogs nor Rottweilers can be said to be more “dangerous” than any other breed." That's the federal government and the largest professional veterinary association in the country. Nothing personal, but I'll take their opinion over yours.
Colleen Carter
12:24 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
And anyone who thinks that putting innocent animals to sleep because of the way they LOOK is too irredeemable for reason. Those "pit bulls" that you see are a mutt morph of many different breeds, and most have no breed commonality at all. The unlucky dogs who have just enough boxer, mastiff, bulldog, cane corso, amstaff, or bull terrier in their hodgepodge of breed DNA to have short hair and a large head should all be euthanized? The fact that you think so speaks volumes about your "character". And the fact that you cannot understand that no breed commonality means that there cannot be any breed inherency speaks volumes about your intelligence.
And for the record, cats and tigers are not the same SPECIES! But dog breeds are all canines.
Ronald
4:51 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Not treating all dogs the same is like not treating all kids the same. Are mexicans inherently more dangerous than caucasians? What about restriciting girls and allowing only boys. Start holding owners strictly liable and prohibiting them from declaring bankruptcy JUST to avoid responsibility. If they cann't afford to pay for the actions of their dogs they should have dogs. It's like driving a car without insurance.
savethem
4:00 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
A lot of assumptions. So most landlords don't allow pets. Where's the proof. Also, what is a pit bull mix dog? It's an easy way to label a dog and get rid of it. Where's the proof that most dogs in shelters are pit bulls and mixes? If there has been a study proving that fact I will be the first to say I was wrong. Pit bull is such a generic term and I have walked through kill and no kill shelters and what I find are all sorts of mixed breed dogs and purebreds. There is no discrimination on who dumps what animal at a shelter. It's too easy to make assumptions about millions of dogs and the people that are responsible about them. The sooner we stop making one dog the big bad or distinctive the better. Focus on making any dog owner more knowledgeable and responsible and understand dog behavior and what that dog needs in training and socialization to be a safe dog. There are more people and more dogs. It is imperative that all dog owners learn how to make their dog safe. But discrimination is wrong and landlords shouldn't have to be mind readers. Dogs are individuals no matter how much anyone says otherwise. They aren't clones and neither are people.
Karl Schuub
4:22 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
With all due respect pound sand. My sister is looking for a temp rental right now and almost every listing clearly lists "no pets" as a criteria. It's no point having any sort of conversation with a bunch of pit bull people - go link to any shelter; look at the photos. When they say beagle vs. pit bull there's a pretty discernable difference. Keep your dog, just be ready to assume financial liability for the damages it might cause. This isn't so difficult - the reason pits are being singled out is because they have been shown to be time and again capable of inflicting grave and fatal injury. I'll give you an example of why this is dumb using an example of airport patdown. Let's say a 2 year old infant is the Golden Retreiver and the young man from Iran wearing a shirt that reads "jihad" in big letters is your Pit. Just because the guy has the shirt and is from Iran doesn't mean he's a bad guy even if all the other bad guys that have ever blown up a plane have origins in the middle east and would profess "jihad" but do you think treating the 2 year old with equal scrutiny is a valuable exercise? That's your Golden Retreiver...they don't bite, don't cause injury - it's never happened. Ultimately the pit crowd throws out these red herrings because their real focus is on protecting themselves from liability because it scares them - understandibly. I'm sure there are nice Pits, but I don't trust them and sure wouldn't want one living near my home.
savethem
4:35 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
To Karl Schuub below. That's okay. There you go assuming what I am again or what I think because I want to stand up for pit bulls. You have a lot of assumptions with no proof. You have your opinion but I have a right to disagree. You assume too much and I disagree with your assumptions.
Colleen Carter
12:40 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Actually, Karl, a Golden Retriever killed a child in South Carolina last March.
And as for "pit bull people", I, for one, have a master's degree, own a home in Montgomery County, own my own business, and just celebrated my 12th anniversary. Since this idiotic court ruling, I've interacted with quite a few fellow "pit bull people" in Maryland. Most are professionals, the vast many of whom have advanced degrees, are homeowners, and have families. They are very literate, well-spoken, middle-class and upper middle-class professionals, most of whom own homes and decided at some point to visit their local shelter and rescue a mutt, and found themselves in the middle of controversy for doing so because their dog MIGHT be a "pit bull" (whatever that means). Because they are political, donate money to their local candidates, and are civic-minded, they became vocal not only to defend their pet, per se, but to preserve reason and common sense in Maryland.
Now, let's move to your crowd -- the "pit bulls haters". You cannot spell or complete a grammatically-correct sentence. Your arguments are based on emotion, speculation, personal opinion, and (frankly) complete and utter ignorance. You cannot be reasoned with. You respond to common sense, facts, and statistics, even those from the federal government and the largest veterinary organization in the U.S., with the most RIDICULOUS 3rd grade mentality "arguments" I have every read.
That says it all.
Karl Schuub
1:05 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
Really Colleen that might be true in Montgomery County; I don't live there so I wouldn't know. Where I live in Harford County the people with pit bulls would either live in Edgewood (you know where the pit bull charged the child and the officer and was shot 5 times before it gave up), or out in the country living in trailers with confederate flags over the windows.
Colleen Carter
2:58 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
Well, Karl, the rest of Maryland is not Edgewood. Maybe Edgewood should focus on enacting laws such as those in Montgomery County, and dogs would be treated better, the public would be safer, and there would be far less incidents such as the one that you described.
But you just proved my point. When the majority of dog owners, even those dogs that may be called "pit bull" by visual identification, are owned by responsible people who do not live in trailers with confederate flags in the window, and incidents such as the one you described are pretty much nonexistent. This points to the problem being the owner, doesn't it?
And for the record, I'm a Southerner, and my grandmother's grandfather fought in the Confederacy, and I can still adopt a pit bull type dog from a shelter and raise and socialize him to not be a public menace.
Colleen Carter
4:03 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
This "Letter" is proof that attorneys really are as bad as their reputation.
A few questions for Mr. Dunne:
1. What if the Solesky child had been attacked by a German Shepherd? Would you be marginalizing German Shepherd owners? Considering the fact that Maryland has had no dog-related deaths in over 6 years, and serious dog-related injuries are spread across several different breeds and breed mixes, it would seem to me that if you were truly intent on protect people from dog attacks (which are, in fact, relatively rare), then you would not be focused on any single breed.
2. It seems from this letter that your issue is with the civil court system, and the fact that your clients received no legal remedy from the person responsible for this incident - the dog owner. As a matter of fact, from my perspective, the only person who got away "scot free" from this incident was the dog owner. The dog was euthanized. The child was seriously injured. The parents were left with bills and a great of emotional trauma. The citizens of Maryland have now been burdened with the task of sifting through a completely idiotic and irresponsible ruling, devoting legislative time and money to fix this judicial mess. The dog owners of Maryland are now fighting to keep their home and their dogs. Why isn't your ire focused on the "loophole" in the court system that allowed this to happen rather than on dogs and owners?
"Self-serving" is appropriate here, but not for the landlord!
Tony Solesky
2:21 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Colleen, The dog owner produced papers that his dogs were Am Staffs. The Court didn't single out Pitbulls it simply was the breed in front of them. That was coupled to the other cases that had made it before them also where dogs whose identiy as Pit Bulls was not in dispute.
On the last sentence on # 2 is because just as for what ever reason you also never raised the question of the court. Once someone does bring the question sadly the only thing that motivates them to respond is their pocketbook. Clearly even you don't believe the law as it was was good so why have you never moved to change it when kids where getting killed and their parents lost their homes to medical bills?
Also You must know the reason the court said PitBulls are inherently dangerous is not becuase we aked them that question NO. It was in fact the other side who was confident that they were going to get a anwser of no that raised the question in the first place. I can only imagine they were thinking on a larger scale and the court ruled on the question as if to say well given that that is what we have before us it would appear at least in Maryland they are.
Colleen Carter
4:27 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
An American Staffordshire Terrier is not a pit bull. American Staffordshire Terriers are an AKC-registered breed. A "pit bull type" dog is a mix of several breeds (up to 10), and has no AKC recognition because it is, essentially, a mutt. A "pit bull type dog" MAY include American Staffordshire Terrier in its DNA mix, but an Ohio DNA study showed that this happens in only 20% of dogs visually identified as "pit bull". "Pit Bull" and "American Staffordshire Terrier" is not synonymous.
The judges made MANY mistakes in this case, which is why this court ruling has caused them so much embarrassment, and is the reason why this poor ruling has had to be addressed and will be overturned by the General Assembly, and this is just one of MANY in which due diligence was not performed.
The reason that the court came to the conclusion that "pit bull type" dogs were "inherently dangerous" is because Mr. Dunne presented false evidence to the court. He pulled statistics from dogbite.org, which is OBVIOUSLY not a professional website with any cited material. Any attorney who had to write a paper in law school should know what "cited" and "not cited" material means. No PROFESSIONAL site backs up dogbite stats or info.
Unfortunately, the judges did not do their job, and took the information at face value. There is a reason why they have not addressed the Motion for Reconsideration, and it's not because they are confident that their ruling is not a debacle and an embarrassment.
Colleen Carter
3:25 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
The only thing that motivates them to respond is their pocketbook? Hogwash. Many good laws are enacted without any civil action. Montgomery County has tethering and crating laws in place that, if enacted in Baltimore, would have prevented the incident with your son. Please don't justify your monetary motivation with anything other than your self-serving interests.
This court made a MISTAKE. This mistake is being remedied by legislative branch of our government. The court currently has a motion for reconsideration in front of them. If they were confident that they did not make a mistake, they would have immediately dismissed this motion, as is the norm. There is a reason WHY they are standing behind their decision, and it is NOT it was a well-considered decision. The were not thinking on a larger scale, they were not thinking AT ALL!
And I am doing a great deal to change this court decision. I have interacted with my elected legislatures and the governor's office, and I have taken part in several marches and assemblies to make my position as a citizen clear. And it is working.
The CDC estimates that about 4,000 children die every year from guns. 31 people died last year as a result of dog aggression -- in the cases of children most were infants left alone with dogs. We average 33 gun-homicides each DAY. In MD, there have been ZERO deaths related to dog aggression in over 6 years, but 540 people died last year alone by guns.
Mary High
4:26 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
I don't disagree with holding OWNERS responsible. But a landlord, really??? To me that's just looking for a buck from whoever you can get it from. Instead I believe , it should be bankruptcy laws that should be changed. If you have been sued for damages of any kind you shouldn't be able to claim that as part of your bankruptcy. But I think going after landlords is just the most ridiculous thing I have heard yet. Make the owner 100% responsible no matter what. No getting out of it period. Pay the bills of the victim , which is the right thing to do. My other thought is okay , so you hold landlords accountable too. How will that help you if someone owns the home they live in. They file bankruptcy and then the victim gets nothing? So I guess if a dog bites you. You better hope their a renter. (lol)
Karl Schuub
6:40 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
That assumes there's no equity in thier home. If there is...then bye, bye it's not theirs anymore.
Colleen Carter
12:48 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Considering the fact that there are 88 million dogs in the U.S., and there were 31 dog-related deaths in the U.S. last year and about 8,000 hospital admittances for dog-related injuries last year, and Maryland has not had ANY dog-related deaths in over 6 years, most people -- whether they own their home or not -- have absolutely nothing to worry about.
As a matter of fact, according to the CDC and the AVMA, if you spay/neuter, properly socialize your dog with people and other animals, supervise your dog around children under 12, and properly exercise your dog, then you can truly rest easy.
There is a .0002% chance of being involved in a serious dog-related injury in the U.S. by a dog of any breed. You have a greater chance of winning the lottery. Almost 88 million dog owners in the U.S. are responsible, and their dogs will never be involved in a serious aggression incident. Only a small handful are not, and they are usually pretty easy to identify.
Tony Solesky
6:16 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
I will be busy but to set the tone for the first three comments. Yes The CDC stopped tracking breed not because they can not be identified properly but because to many unqualified people did it, Now since that happened regardless of what you think of dogsbite.org/maryland may say any fatality is backed by a full police investigation and experts are brought in to identify the breed. It will be called by its breed name in the report and also the catch all Pitbull. This means that all of the killing sthat say pit bull fell in the catch all PitBull breed group. So what we do know it the catch all hound dog, sporting group and all of the other catch alls that are used in dogs shows still can't gather in dogs other then the pitbull class with ,ore frequency then any of the other groups ccombined. So your beef is with accreditted police departments not dogs bit regardless.
Chas Cherry
7:25 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
Ask any Vet, trainer, Animal Control officer or Conformation judge if they can guarantee the breeding of a dog from their visual identification, if they are honest they will answer "No." The only true identification is the pedigree papers which mixed breeds and most rescues don't come with. Police officers also are not qualified dog identification experts. dogsbite.org has no source material to verify their "findings. My advice to you would be loosen your belt and allow the smoke to dissipate.
Colleen Carter
12:17 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
dogbite.org lists incidents involving boxers, bulldogs, bullmastiffs, and cane corsos and calls them "pit bull incidents". When confronted, they say that these dog breeds (among others) are "pit bull type dogs". But they don't expand this definition to their claim that "pit bulls" make up only 5% of the U.S. dog population, when that statistic only applies to AKC-registered American Staffordshire Terriers and Staffordshire Bull Terriers -- none of which have EVER been involved in any documented aggression incident. It is sham website with sham info.
The CDC and the AVMA stopped tracking by breed because most incidents of dog aggression involve mixed breed dogs. Although many short-haired, mixed breed dogs over 40 pounds are subjectively labeled as "pit bulls" by those writing reports, it is a documented fact that DNA tests have proven that the visual identification of "pit bull" can as easily be a boxer/mastiff mix as it can be a bulldog/husky mix -- and those are two mixes that have been called "pit bull" by dog wardens. With only visual identification, and so many breed mixes comprising the definition of "pit bull", there is NO WAY to accurately track breed. Nor is the moniker "pit bull" accurate for statistical analysis if there is no quantifiable baseline. But the CDC/AVMA study stated clearly that this DOES NOT MATTER because "neither pit bull-type dogs nor Rottweilers can be said to be more “dangerous” than any other breed."
That is pretty clear.
Karl Schuub
8:33 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
Just this evening and yet again, YET AGAIN, another Pit Bull, charged and mauled a child and was subsequently shoot and killed by officers in Harford County. Something is wrong with these dogs. I can assure the owner will sware this dog has always been gentle.
Colleen Carter
12:55 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Do you know it was a pit bull? How? What is your definition of a "pit bull"? Did the dog have papers? Was the dog DNA tested?
Also, you stated the dog was running loose. Do you think, perhaps, that this might be indicative of an irresponsible owner? Just a thought...
Tony Solesky
1:06 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Karl it did not look like the kid was mauled but I can assure you with a officer discharging his service weapon they will get the breed of dog correct in the Police report. Dogs run at large all of the time I am unfamiliar with any epidemic of unreported maulings attributted to them. If these dogs are a concern to PUblic Safety just for getting loose or a imperfect owner or a child who does not have Pit Bull Doggy education and management and training then something is inherently wrong with the dog and the breed as a suitable domestic pet that in the vast majority of dogs are far more user friendly so to speak.
Colleen Carter
4:32 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Actually, a Texas police report in January listed 4 dogs mauling a child as "pit bulls", and they were confirmed as registered, full-breed boxers.
In June, a child in West Virginia was attacked by dogs called "pit bulls" in the initial police report, and this was released to the media. Afterward, the sheriff said that the deputy should not have identified the breed, and the breed of the dogs was determined to be lab/shepherd mixes.
This is fairly common. To paraphrase the ASPCA in their report on dog attacks and the media, if a dog shows aggression it's always a pit bull even when it is not.
Karl Schuub
8:39 pm on Wednesday, August 15, 2012
Details are the dog bit this child in the face and arms...deputy ran back to the car to get a gun and was forced to shoot the dog. Owners had two pits; they were lose and while seemingly calm saw a child and suddenly charged. They're lucky there were cops in the area or this child could very well be dead.
Brian
8:14 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
So Karl who is responsible for this dog attack?
Karl Schuub
8:57 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
The most responsible party of course would be the owner, but if the owner is a tenant and the property owner was aware these two dogs were on his property then the owner of the property is also liable. I have no problem with strict liability because I see it as a way to limit pit ownership at least to homeowners because for some reason less responsible people seem to be attracted to these dogs.
Brian
10:54 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Karl so you are saying because one is a tenant they are less responsible and therefore should have their right to own whatever dog they want taken away.
That sir is like say because one is white they have no right to own whatever dog they want. Home ownership does not equate to responsible people.
Karl of the 35 million "pit bulls" in the USA, how many owners do you know? Then among those owner how many of them are irresponsible?
DawnP
4:51 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Wow, seriously, Karl? You see no problem with limiting ownership of certain types of dogs to homeowners? So not only do you want to discriminate against certain types of dogs, you also want to discriminate against certain "types" of humans! Nice.
Tony Solesky
12:58 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Which brings us to my point on Public safety regardless of breed 76% of all bit victims are children under age 12 and if you have more then one dog you increase the risk of bite by a factor of 5 times AVMA and CDC. Dog biites are listed to occur at a rate of 4.5 million per year which is a declared epidimic by the CDC. Why are breeders and rescue organizations not required to make people aware of the hazards of owning any dog regardless of breed. And that these at risk situations are unacceptable in households with these at risk groups? Especailly where ther is no health or liability insurance to protect the Taxpayer who will pick up the tab. Why has the Animal lobby not pushed for child endagerment charges to be brought against all dog owners whose dog bites someone in these at risk groups if it is all in how you raise the dog? By that logic any dog that bites these groups is proof prima facia of a negligent owner.
As far as fatalities and Maulings I can't speak for dogsbite but I can for the Police departments that report those that end in fatality.
Tony Solesky
1:15 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Colleen, Thank you for setting the bar of acceptable fatalities to dog population statistics. First of all Fatalities are confined to only a dozen breeds and their mixes. You must first elimante all of the dog breeds that have not and do not kill. That leaves the chances of a attack by a PitBull per their # 3 (Altough animal lobby testimony is # 2 which makes it worse) most popular breed in our state with a fatality to every 1000 encounters and a 1 in 18 chance of being bitten and mauled. What is so sick and sad is not weather the Media looks for these events but that they occur and that if they occur with other breeds that that somehow minimizes that they occur with PitBulls. Pitbulls can not stand on their own attributes as a suitable pet compared to most all other breeds.
Colleen Carter
4:41 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Well, that is your opinion. But is not the opinion of every professional and veterinary organization the U.S. I have a cousin who was attacked by a Doberman as a child. To this day, she does not like the breed and does not like to be around Dobermans. She does not feel that they are trustworthy, and insists that they will turn on their owners and that they are dangerous around children. Like you, she has an emotional (dare I say, "feminine" in your viewpoint) attitude about Dobermans. Much like your personal experience has shaped your opinion on "pit bulls".
The difference is that there is a consensus on what a "Doberman" is. You have an issue with every short-haired, large-headed mutt over 40 pounds in America. That could be a boxer/bulldog mix as well as a bullmastiff/lab mix. Both of these mixes have been called "pit bull" by shelter workers and dog wardens, and would have euthanized under that label had it not been for the fact that the state of Ohio decided to overturn its ridiculous anti-"pit bull" law.
Colleen Carter
4:50 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
For the record, a Jack Russell Terrier killed a baby earlier this year. You can't eliminate any dog from this list of having the potential to seriously injure or kill. More people are admitted to the hospital with bites from small dogs than large dogs. Small dogs are more likely like to bite than a pit bull. Perhaps not kill, but since the occurrence of a person being killed by a dog at all is miniscule and the public safety is "biting" (according to you), I don't care if I'm bitten by a chihuahua or a German Shepherd, I still got bit by a dog.
What is sad is that the media will not report on a dog bite or attack unless it can (accurately or not) be attributed to a "pit bull". So, no one hears about the gazillions of other dog attacks and bites, and there are quite a few. So, people are duped into believing the "pit bull type dogs" are more likely to bite or cause injury than any dog.
But actual statistics do not support this.
There is no "breed" called "pit bull", but I agree that based on the common definition (just about any short-haired, mixed breed dog over 40 pounds), this would probably make up most dogs in Maryland, which means that short-haired, mixed breed dogs over 40 pounds will also probably be the ones most responsible for more documented cases of aggression. This is common sense. But very few will share any common breed DNA, and calling every one of them them a "pit bull" is a subjective and useless moniker. It's only purpose is to fan hysteria.
Tony Solesky
1:22 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Colleen,
Here is what speaks to my character I am concerned about the people who die each year by being chewed on and those who are maimed disfigured both mentally and physically. You will never solve this problem putting dogs needs first because you are setting them up to fail. This breed is failing and Killing because of you and those who share that philosophy. From my view the blood of both the people injured and killed, the other pets injured and killed and the pitbulls themselves that are injured neglected and killed is born in your appraoch.
Colleen Carter
5:12 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
31 people were killed by dogs in 2011. There were almost 9,000 gun homicides last year, with MD as one of the top 10 states. MD has had ZERO dog-related deaths in almost 6 years. Put that in perspective.
At the MOST, it is estimated that "pit bull type dogs" were responsible for 11 of those deaths. REMEMBER, "pit bull type dog" is NOT A" BREED and is a mutt that can be a mix of up to 10 different breeds, so that much means 11 short-haired mutts over 40 pounds of no distinct breed were responsible for 11 deaths.
That still means that 20 people were killed by other dogs. What are you doing about that? Shouldn't legislation cover them as well?
Because of the hysteria surrounding any dog that can be called a pit bull, whether it is a boxer/ bulldog mix, a bullmastiff/lab mix, or an Amstaff/husky mix, we euthanize over 1,000 innocent dogs a day. Whether it's a "breed" ban, or just the reticence of people to adopt a larger, short-haired dog because of MORONS and their idiotic paranoia, we exterminate dogs en masse for no good reason. The CDC has clear guidelines for reducing dog aggression, and they clearly state that it has nothing to do with breed. Localities that follow these guidelines have far fewer incidents of dog aggression than those that ban breeds. It's time to WAKE UP, smell the coffee, and start affecting some good rather than continue spreading nonsense. You"pit bull" hysterics sound (as my grandfather would say) like a bunch of crazy old fish wives.
Tony Solesky
1:29 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Colleen, You and I have hashed it out before and you have me on three key points 1) I have only a high school diploma and frankly I doubt it is equal to a 6th grade education. 2) I am not a proffessional worker per say I am a house painter. 3) No one and I mean no one spells worse then me. I think that I was able to advance the issue this far does not speak to me being smarter then my resume may make me appear but rather how simple this whole thing is and how no amount of education will fix that what is inherent in these dogs.
Colleen Carter
5:20 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
I will admit that there are people who only high school diplomas (or less) who are highly intelligent. My grandfather was one of them.
But, I'm sorry, you are not. Your arguments go around in circles, and your logic is nonexistent. I edit technical papers for a living, and I correct the spelling and grammar of geniuses every day, and they are still geniuses. I'm sorry, but you are not, and I have to bite my tongue to keep from calling you Dogberry every time I encounter you.
Unfortunately, this is what makes you fodder for the dogbite people, and if you were as smart as you think you are, you would realize this.
Ronald
4:48 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
EXCELLENT analysis of the case at hand and explanation of the law. THANK YOU. I appreciate your representation of the client and will refer others that I know that need a good, honest and caring attorney. I am still against discrimination of any type and think that the liability issue should be one debated and legislatively addressed.
Tony Solesky
7:17 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Ronald, Your idea about how to make dog owners more responsible is a good angle. Your idea and anyone who has the idea that dogs are all aloke knows not what breed means or what breeding is. Further never never compare a dog to human beings or children. They are not children we don't own children. we don't put them omn leashies or breed them and sell them. They are not even remotely close to children. This is where the danger is. Further I was at all of the hearing the court really desoises that arguement especially when it is compared to racism. Actually to breed a dog is to discriminate between traits and appearnces you want and see to it the the dog mates to the other dog you want it to. Their simply is nothing more discriminatory then that. It is a man made arrangement to produce a man made or sought after outcome. Training is merely the direction of instinct. You can't train a Pitbull to run as fast as a greyhound.
Colleen Carter
6:32 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
A greyhound is a distinct breed with breed conformity. A "pit bull" is NOT a breed. A "pit bull type dog" is a MUTT, and be a bullmastiff/boxer mix or it can be a bulldog/lab mix. There are endless possibilities when it comes to the visual identification of a "pit bull", and DNA studies have confirmed this.
A greyhound may have a genetic inherency to run quickly, but there can be no genetic inherency with no common genetics. And most "pit bull type dogs" have NO COMMON GENETICS. This has been PROVEN in more than one study.
Tony Solesky
7:30 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Ronald, Sorry it should say the court really dispises those anologies. When the attorney for the ASPCA made that arguement the judges all came down on him. I of course don't support that view but I am just letting everyone knowincluding those against me that that arguement will get you no where with the court.
Tony Solesky
7:40 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
I have not turned away from the religious view either. Meaning I have explored all arguements over the las t 5 years. They can be legal, personal philosophical and on and on. I have spoken to pastors and preachers and priest to get their view just as I have spoken to dog owners and attorneys and political peoplle. I do know that the religous community members I talk to will tell you that they hold that man is like no other animal and the he and he alone is Soverign above animals and that we are to better and being our brothers keeper not better Zookeepers.
Brian
8:17 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
WHEN IS ANYONE WHO IS COMMENTING ON THIS SUBJECT GOING TO REALIZE "PIT BULL" IS NOT A BREED!!!
Tony your child was attacked by an AM Staff. who's owner happened to file BK. What will you do when the landlord files Bankuptcy?
Tony Solesky
8:37 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Brian, If you go back over the years I was the first one to argue that PitBull is not a breed. What it is is like saying Jet Ski or Suv. It is several breeds all of which like a Pick up truck have different manufactures. chevy pick up Am Staff Pit Bull . In breed specific legislation it always lays out the breeds within the title PitBull that they wish to target which is usually based on the breed that is costing the taxpayer the most money due to Bankruptcy. Bankruptcy takes money form the tax payer without the benefit of a court battle. What would I do if the landlord filed for bankruptcy. The same as I am doing now fighting for Public Safety. I had insurnace both health and Homeowners. There are all kinds of cost from loss of work, emotional , really the list is quite large for uncovered cost. My suit is promoting vigalance and conversation and as a result things are going to change. It may even be close to what Collleen said in January. Who here can say that that outcome is not as a result of our suit and that that outcome is not priceless
Brian
8:51 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
You say here you are fighting for Public Safety but earlier you said you wanted to have some sort of recourse. Are they one in the same?
Colleen Carter
6:43 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
You are trying to take the credit for the good work of good people who have devoted a great deal of their time and money into fighting the damage the damage that you have caused to innocent dog owners in the state of Maryland, and I will NOT allow this assertion to go unchallenged.
YOU caused the damage. YOU pursued your cause with no care about the consequences to your fellow citizens. You are NOT concerned about public safety. If you were, then you would be lobbying for laws that protect all people and all dogs. But you don't. You are fixated on "pit bulls", and you are fixated on collecting money from a lawsuit to the point that every dog owner in Maryland who is not a homeowner can go to hell for all you care.
The outcome of this will be reasonable laws that came about because a few judges made a very bad decision. Actually, I blame them more than you. Any moron can bring a lawsuit, but we count on our judicial system to be reasonable, respect the laws currently in place, not legislate from the bench, and not set precedents that create an undue burden on innocent citizens. Those judges failed on all accounts.
But YOU are not responsible for ANY new legislation that comes as a result of this idiotic decision and these irresponsible judges. I'm sorry, but you have not and will not be responsible for ANY GOOD. You have only caused harm. That is your only legacy.
Tony Solesky
8:56 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Brian,
Dogs are property under the law. The neighborhood is human domain and animals are there at the pleasure or indulgence of the neighborhood. It is the complete obligation of the property owner to secure their property. On the issue of control unless a Landlord expressly turns over complete contol of the property to the resident like the bank does to the landlord who has the mortgage. You are wrong in your belief. A lease is by it's existence the maintaining of control over the property. A mortgage is the securing of collateral in a loan to completely different things. The terms Mortgage and Lease are not terms born that are semantic. Actually most of the confusion in these matters is that people myself included operate under false assumptions. Then we find out what things mean and the sting makes us resist for a while. Then we adapt and move in the direction of what has been brought to light. Again eveyone here including me that is able to be with themselves has learned something that will change the way they conduct their business and dogs. That is a good thing.
Tony Solesky
9:00 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Brian, Yes Public Safety and Recourse are one in the same. Break a law against the Public and see what recourse the Public Safety Officals know as Police take and then where does it go to the courts. I am trying to keep people out of the courts not get them into it.
Brian
9:39 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
The landlord broke no law yet you want to take him/her to court. Come on man, lets be honest here. Had the dog owner had the means to pay(recourse) we would not be here talking about this. If you true reason was Public Safety, then why did you wait until YOUR child was hurt to bring this issue up?
Karl Schuub
9:48 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
If the landlord was aware that the tenant had two dogs, and those dogs are deemed to be potentially dangerous then via existing liability statutes the landlord can be held liable. Assume a landlord was allowing someone to use the backyard as an archery range and an arrow gets away? There's an absolute obligation to ensure homeowners whether they be landlords or not, do not have dangerous or risky activities taking place on their property.
Brian
10:48 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Tony if you are truly in it for public safety then remove the money from the suit.
I see nothing wrong with you trying to make yourself whole but you have to take some responsibility here too.
Brian
11:10 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Karl I agree that the landlord has the responsibility to ensure a safe home for its tenant and neighbors. But when a landlord is unaware of the danger, how can one morally or legally hold that landlord liable for the tenants behavior? Can we agree that all dogs have the ability to be dangerous? If so why not make the law for all dogs?
Brian
10:44 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Snake are dangerous ....why not ban them too. A Tenant moves in with a minor child, is the landlord responsible if that child attacks the neighbors child? Any person is potentially dangerous. Any dog is potentially dangerous.
Karl Schuub
10:51 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
When children have been legally defined as "dangerous" then we'll add them to the list of things that may carry absolute liability, but they haven't been so no, kids don't count. However if your kid damages property or creates a neighborhood nuisance and the landlord becomes aware and does nothing then yes, he can be also held liable for damage.
Brian
11:05 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
So the smart thing for a landlord to do would be to have some sort of protection against over zealous suing neighbors?
Karl Schuub
1:40 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
No Brian - the smart thing to do would be to make it clear if you're renting to people that you check thier references to include public complaints they might have against them that include dogs. Also make it clear if you do allow for pets, that you reserve the right to observe and interact with thier animals before any lease is finalized. I'd put a 40 lb. maximum on any dog I'd allow on my property and keep in touch with the neighbors after I'd rent to make sure the tenants aren't letting the dog run wild. Those are your responsibilities if you want to avoid being sued and if you can't take the time to do all that just don't rent to people with animals.
Brian
11:25 am on Thursday, August 16, 2012
I think this has opened up a whole can of worms. "Pit Bulls" ...since this is not a specific breed the law will have to specify which breeds fall into this category. Then which mix of which breeds, then how much of which breeds. Then on top of that the party bringing the suit will have to prove the dog is a "pit bull". Sounds like a lot of money changing hands for a knee jerk law.
Tony Solesky
9:43 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Brian,One thing is for sure it took five years to get a decision so the only thing Knee Jerk is how willy nilly people by sell place and rescue dogs. My guess is that the court was limitied to PitBulls because that is all that was before them but they probably figure as did most everyone out their that all dog owners should be held strictly liable for the actions of their dogs. So they inclided as many as they could. Maybe in the hopes that the legislature would take a hint. either way it would not of change the world of the PitBull owners. So maybe we wait until these other breeds kill and then those breeds finally get the law we all should have anyway. Not really sure what one has to do with the other.
Colleen Carter
2:18 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
It took 5 years to get the decision because all of the lower courts did the right thing, and then you lucked out with this court when enough sitting judges were out and a bunch of geriatric "sub" judges were taking their place that you got the decision that you wanted from a bunch of senile morons who probably have not read a brief since the Clinton administration. The fact that the General Assembly has to step in and correct their mistake is an EMBARRASSMENT to this court. They are, essentially, getting a spanking from the legislative and executive branch of Maryland government. These morons couldn't figure out that statistics presented by an online soothsayer with a high school diploma don't agree academic studies conducted and published by the American Veterinary Medical Association and the CDC. They weren't pulling the strings of the legislation. They created legislation (which they are not allowed to do), and they did it out of laziness and ignorance.
Mellie Barbalaco-Baze
1:33 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
I don't know much about law, but what I DO KNOW is that the pit bull owners/lovers/zealots have had their say, and NOW IT'S TIME FOR THE VOICES OF THE VICTIMS TO BE HEARD! We won't stop until they are, again, and again! Come join us in walking to honor, remember, and support the VICTIMS of pit bulls and other dangerous dogs at the FIRST EVER WALK FOR VICTIMS. Our Walk will be held in Tucson, AZ on October 27th, 2012! We will MAKE SURE that everyone HEARS THE VICTIMS NOW! See our website at http://walkforvictimsofpitbulls.blogspot.com and see our facebook page at Walk For Victims of Pit Bulls and Other Dangerous Dogs! See you there Tony!
Charles Cherry
2:47 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Mellie, I was once an ignorant "pit bull" hater until one of those evil beasts wandered up on my porch. I tried spraying it with the hose to get it to leave but all it would do is hunker down and shiver on a chilly night. 2 hours later she was in the same spot shivering. My wife allowed her in the house and one of our cats went up to the evil beast and rubbed on her. The evil beast just sniffed and wagged her tail.
Since then I have learned to understand the media's sensationalizing select stories which are written in the worst light for the animals involved to sell news, not to inform the public of the truth. The media has repeatedly been shown to publish Labrador Retriever and numerous other "family" breed attacks under the heading of "Pit Bull." My evil beast is now my Service Animal under the American's with Disabilities Act and goes with me to public places and works for me. She has never attacked anyone other than with slobbery kisses. This includes small kittens brought into my animal rescue, a Tea Cup Chihuahua at a Pit Bull Awareness Day event and numerous children at Walmart who she helps me to teach the proper way to meet a dog so they are safer when meeting ANY breed of dog.
No one feels more regret for a dog bite victim than I do. I have been bitten (a loose Jack Russel Terrier who was aggravating a "pit bull" who was being walked on leash by his owner.
Charles Cherry
2:50 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Blaming the majority of the breed for the actions of a few is ignorance incarnate. I agree EVERY dog owner should be liable for his dog's actions. The breed does not matter one bit with this. Once breedism is brought in it becomes prejudice against many because of the few. Should we ban minorities because per capita there are more of them in the penal system?
Karl Schuub
2:59 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
You sounded normal until you used the word "breedism" and went into the comparison of dogs to black people.
Jen
3:09 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Melanie, as a pit bull type (?) shelter dog owner, I would be happy to participate in a walk supporting victims of dog bites/attacks. However, the tenor of the website tells me I would not be welcome because of how my dogs look. Regardless, I will continue to fight for victims' rights in a nonjudgmental way, which is for all victims' rights, including the woman I recently met whose whole hand was bandaged and her forearm swollen black and blue from a bite from a 6 lb. dog.
Karl Schuub
3:19 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Having a bite on your hand and having your face torn off are quite different.
Colleen Carter
5:34 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
It is a VICTIM PARTY! Everybody bring cake and punch.
This, folks, is what it is all about. People who have much identity wrapped up in being a victim who they are more interested in milking this status for all it's worth than they are in actually accomplishing anything useful for public safety or good, and doing anything worthwhile to actually stop further people from being hurt.
For these people, it's not about THE victims, it's all about BEING a victim.
Tim Hoelscher
11:13 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Mellie, I'm not sure it makes much sense promoting an Arizona event on an Annapolis-focused Web site. I'm not sure it makes sense promoting it anywhere, given its graphically violent and masturbatorily indulgent topic. Fetishizing victims is not a way to move forward. Finding reasonable ways to ensure dogs do not become dangerous via owner abuse or neglect and to ensure there is culpability in the event of an attack is one way to move forward. I think most people could get behind a protest against abusive dog owners or something more positive than what you are proposing. It seems to me a very dark and pessimistic endeavor.
Anyway, with respect to what this letter to the editor is about - the Solesky issue - the victims have been heard time and time again ad nauseum. By continuing on the crusade against family dogs, they've exhausted the goodwill that was bestowed on them by the people sympathetic to their case (including many Maryland pit bull-type dog owners). The shift from victim to antagonist is unfortunate; had things gone differently, the Solesky family could be a partner in making Maryland a better and safer place for everyone. Instead, we have to endure possibly four months, possibly much longer, of life under the law produced by the foolish Court of Appeals decision.
Karl Schuub
11:26 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Tom you're wrong. I know you'd like to think the Solesky's have wrecked good will with Marylanders but truth is they've wrecked good will with a very small group of Marylanders unwilling to admit something that is obvious to nearly everyone - we have a problem with pit bulls (bully breeds). I assure you pit bull huggers while adamant and passionate in defense of these dogs are in a very small minority.
Tim Hoelscher
12:22 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
@Karl - "Tim," not "Tom."
Actually, the truth is that the number of people who care about this issue at all, whether pro-pit bull-type dog or anti-pit bull, is a very small minority. The gambling issue took far more of the spotlight during the second special session. Very few people at all are waking up worrying about the "pit bull problem" in Maryland.
The problem that is obvious to you and apparently was to the Maryland Court of Appeals is not nearly as obvious as you might imagine. No bill proposed in the Maryland House or Senate retained the breed-specific language of the court's decision. I'm not sure what this means to you, but to me it means: (1) there is no scientific or anecodtal evidence that pit bull-type dogs are inherently dangerous, so crafting legislation based on that assumption is foolish; and (2) even if the breed-specific language were retained, there's no easy way to identify a pit bull-type dog for legal or insurance purposes.
While I will confess to being a pit bull hugger, much to the delight of my two pit bull-type dogs, I think you will find that the opposition to pit bulls is not nearly as widespread as you imagine. Opposition to dangerous dogs, however, is almost universal. I suspect criminals who abuse, neglect, or fight dogs for profit are the only ones in favor of dangerous dogs.
Jen
3:12 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Oops, I meant Mellie. Sorry.
Janet Miller
3:43 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Tony, so you support the court decision? So you think it's fair that thousands of MD families will have to lose their homes or leave the state so they don't have to give up a member of their family? Do you even care about all of those families losing either their homes or their family member?
Karl Schuub
4:12 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
If your dog mauls someone to the degree that Tony's child was I don't care if they lose thier home, but Janet there are two separate outcomes here that you are blending as one. First, if your dog doesn't bite people you have no problem. If you have a pit bull and your landlord doesn't care you have no problem unless of course it bites someone. Up until and unless something outside your realm of control forces you to give up your animal nobody is moving or losing their pet. If you choose not to take the risk of keeping a pit bull because of the liability and turn it into a shelter that's a very telling suggestion that you doubt how trustworthy that pit bull really is.
Lalalo
5:14 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
@Karl Schuub
Insurance companies and lanlords are already taking steps to evict or deny leasing to tennants who have pit pull look a like dogs, even if they have no history of aggression.
Karl Schuub
7:23 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Maybe the landlords will allow the dogs to stay if the tenants are willing to buy additional insurance. Otherwise - sorry don't have much sympathy. There were and are a lot of other breeds out there without this propensity...in fact there are a few non-pits at the Harford Shelter that need homes.
Colleen Carter
2:07 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
There is no "propensity". There is NO SUCH THING as a "pit bull" breed. MANY different breeds can be visually identified as "pit bull", and there is NO BREED COMMONALITY between them. This has been PROVEN IN DNA STUDIES! If one "pit bull" is a bulldog/boxer mix, and another "pit bull" is a bullmastiff/rottweiler mix, then HOW IS THERE "PROPENSITY"? This is NOT rocket science.
Where is your veterinary degree from, Karl? You keep posing as an expert on dog breeds and on animal behavior, and your opinion is in direct opposition to that of just about every veterinarian and animal behavior professional in the U.S., so I'd really like to know where you went to veterinary school.
Tony Solesky
6:25 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Brian, I did not know the dog was there. this was a family that lived down the street and my ten year old son went to assist his friend that was attacked first. I am being honest I am under oath in a on going case. You are correct had the landlord been held strictly liable by law they would have required his tenate to have insurance which then would have meant that their home would be operating just as mine is with the bank which requires me to have insurance. Then under subrogation everyone is whole. You don't seem to gather that we the mortgage holder are de-facto giving out protection that tenates do not. That difference has to be mitigated as we mortgage holders keep the claims off of the tax base. I don't think you understand what strict Liability means. In my case all it means is I do not have to prove that the landlord knew that a Pit bull can be dangerous and accordingly take certain precations. In taking those precations one being insurance there is no cause for action against them. Even if there is a action against them they still can defend just like at a swim club. All I won is not to have to prove that someone knows a dog is dangerous. If they made it all dog owners are strictly liable all it means is I don't have to prove that you know that dogs can bite and injure. Once we agree you should know that then If you conduct yourself with that knowledge even in the event of a bite it would be just like a car accident with different degrees of claims and/or suits.
Tony Solesky
6:28 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Brian, dogs and snakes are property under the LAW. There is no comparing them legally, morally or on any other basis. That does not mean I don't love my animals it means I don't blend the unblendable. However those projections are the biggest part of the problem with dogs that are set up for failure by owners who foget what they are as a living being and as a species
Tony Solesky
6:38 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
How do you remove money from a suit? And what Lawyer does this? Do you know what it cost to bring a suit? Do you know the money you have to put up to put your money where your mouth is when you bring a suit? Do you know that I am the first person in Baltimore County to have a dog owner criminally charged. I have been at this for five years. Do you know that after we got that ruling which only means I can take the landlord to court what makes you think that means I can win the suit? What are the guilty of? Strict Liability does not mean strict guilt. If you knew what they did you would say to me wow you should sue them then I would have said how can I do that in Maryland under one free bite I have to prove they knew that a dog can injure and thus knowing that acted without regard to the danger. The same danger and disregard under one bite means if I can't prove they know that I can't sue even if they did something that you would agree is worth suing over. You simply do not know what strict liability means. what it means for me as a dog owner or you if it goes to all breeds is the same as it meant to me before I carry insurance. It was my insurance that protected the tax payer. now I am going to recover the money I and my insurance company spent by proving a Landlord who was was in fact negligent. Nothing less nothing more. This law has no effect on my sister who has a Pitbull nor should it any other responsible dog owner. What really is your concern?
Brian
7:43 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
My concern is that lawyers will hold landlords responsible for action of their tenants. This is holding the person who does not and can not control another person, responsible for that person's irresponsible action. This in my opinion is unjust. Why should the landlord take on more expense for the irresponsible actions of another?
Brian
8:00 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Whether you win the suit or not is not my concern. I dont think you have the right to go after a blameless landlord. In most states, OWNERS of domestic animals are typically held strictly liable for any injury or damage caused by such animals. The landlord is not the owner. What needs to happen is a change in the Bankruptcy laws so that one who is being sued for something such as this can't hide behind the law. I think it is wrong to go after a person with deep pockets when they were NOT the ones who had a direct cause to the action. Do you make the landlord pay when his tenant goes out and kills someone? I think not, but you want the landlord to pay when his tenant dog goes out and injures someone? Something doesn't sit right with me about that.
Tony Solesky
6:46 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Mellie,
Yes I will be there. BTW Dominic was mauled in 2007 that year 33 people were killed in the US by dogs. I belive it has not been below 26 since and has hit 30 or more twice more. Can you get mr the number og people killed by dogs in the US since Dominic was attacked. I know you are a dog hater even though you have a service dog and that your dog was nearly killed by a Pit Bull while he was on duty. I hope you didn't sue because you should pay for the mistakes of others.
Tony Solesky
6:51 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Yes Jen I know who Colleen Lynn and Craven are. Colleen introduced statistics in my case that were admissable because they were vetted by being from Police reports that also may or may not have been in the news. not the other way around. You do know the court is a fact finder right? Any thing that you feel may be negative about people you don;t agree with is not the standard that is used by the court. We still have to cope with the facts no matter what you think of the messnegers
Colleen Carter
2:01 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
NOTHING presented by Colleen Lynn is even CLOSE to fact. This woman manufactures information and manipulates statistics in a way that would make a politician blush. You still don't understand that the reason this court decision is causing such controversy and the General Assembly has had to step in to overturn it with legislation is because the judges DID NOT fact check and they DID NOT do their jobs. The fact that sitting judges with law degrees were so easily duped by information that is ridiculously easy to prove incorrect, presented by a woman with no academic degrees or professional affiliations of any kind, who calls herself "Divine Goddess" and tells fortunes online for a buck a minute, is an outrageous embarrassment to this court and to our state.
Adrianne
7:07 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Your characterization about the accuracy of Colleen Lynn, aka "Craven Desires" is totally false. They are NOT vetted from police reports, they absolutely are from media accounts that are very often INACCURATE with regard to breed identification.
As to the court being a "fact finder", that's a joke as well. The court did no such thing. Allow me if you will, to quote a letter from Montgomery County Delegate Benjamin Kramer, in a letter to members of the Maryland House Judiciary Committee and Senate Judicial Proceedings Committee:
(begin quote)
"While the majority opinion appears to be bizarre and out of step, with empirical studies which repeatedly have concluded that breed specific laws are ineffective, it is just the same, part of a broader agenda of the Court and its Chief Judge. For two years, the Court's Chief Judge has been signaling his intention to modify Maryland's common law with regard to its tort doctrine to "comparative" negligence. This will be his swan song and legacy to himself.
...Unfortunately, "pitbulls" [and their owners] are simply collateral damage in a far broader agenda being carefully mapped out by the Court of Appeals."
(end quote)
You see, Mr. Solesky, it is evident that the court ruled as it did not because it was a right and just decision. It was because innocent dogs and their owners were pawns in the construction of ill-conceived legacy building.
Tony Solesky
6:57 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Charles, A jack russell bite can be nasty I believe you I believe any dog can and often do bite after all they are dogs they are not going to punch us. So how long were you hospitialized? When the Police shot it how many shots did it take to stop it. My son was more fortunate the dog stopped attacking him with no intervention. once he passed out or as I like to call it his safe place. I am very sorry that you were bitten that I can say with no hesitation but we are talking maulings here not a semantic term
Tony Solesky
7:00 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Charles, No we should not ban people minorites or other for any reason
Tony Solesky
7:12 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Janet, Yes I completely support the Courts decision. No I think it is horrible what is going to result from the mismangement of the dog population by the rescue shelters and breeders. Do you know the dog population has grown from 52 million in 2001 to 77 million currently. The animal lobby has had the wheel far to long and has run us in a ditch. The effects of the cure are a horrible measure of just how screwed up the pitbull mismangement program is going. Nothing less Nothing more. Something has to be done. My sister will not loose her PitBull and I would have never dreamed of owning a dog in which a change in the degree of responsibility would show me to be irresponsible. This is why my sister and many many Maryland-ers can keep there dog. The animal lobby supported strict liabilty for all dogs. I was there testifying with them. Landlords supported it but not for landlords. what you don't know that is because when the ruling that came down in 1998 came down the greater majority of them banned pets at all or dogs over 30 pounds. this is mainly a problem for residential landlords and the rescue foster operations who have the horrible task of puttin dog to sleep who started to support no kill and Like the ASPCA fighting children like my son from getting recourse because that was easier then managing the pets better. What is the ASPCA doing supporting any breed or animal breed. there job is not to fight for what we can own legally only what ever we own care for properly
Tony Solesky
7:20 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Yes by your numbers two 100ths of a percent may be true. Of course that then means that with the remaining dogs and breeds in the 60% left we are talking about a incredible unlikely to impossible event which somehow seems far more sane regardless if their are a billion dogs. You do realize that you are saying that where a dog is present it is acceptable that someone may die. What is the necessity for any dog breed or even owning a dog of any breed that can kill. especially when many other breeds and their mixes simply do not.
Colleen Carter
1:50 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
ANY dog has the capability of killing. A Jack Russell killed a baby earlier this year. You are no more likely to be killed or seriously injured by one breed of dog over another breed, and the likelihood of either is very low. This is the conclusion of the CDC and the American Veterinary Medical Association. To remove the possibility of any dog-related aggression, we would have to remove dogs of all breeds completely from our society.
So, why would anyone own a dog at all? For the same reason that people get in cars even though thousands of people die in car accidents every year, get on airplanes even though hundreds of people die in plane crashes every year, or eat at restaurants even though over 500 people die of food poisoning every year.
Because reasonable people do not let hysterics and fear dominate their lives, and understand that risk is a part of life. Bad things happen. I can understand how a traumatic experience might affect less rational thought. But that does not change the overall statistics. The same number of people die in elevator accidents that are killed by dog aggression. Do you hesitate to ride elevators?
You probably have some sort of post-traumatic stress that you are dealing with by targeting dogs and owners with hostility rather than dealing productively with your issues. But this does not change the statistics that 99.9999% of all dogs of all breeds in America will live their lives and never hurt another living soul.
Karl Schuub
9:49 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Using the logic of your pit bull crowd because I actually don't believe this - but prove it was a Jack Russell; you have no idea what sort of dog it was. A small, short haired dog could be anything. Without DNA testing you can't pin a fatality on a Jack Russell. End sarcasm...see how stupid that is?
Tim Hoelscher
11:26 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
@Karl - the difference between identifying a dog as a Jack Russell and identifying a dog as a pit bull-type dog is stark. Jack Russell is a breed of dog; individual examples of that breed may vary in terms of behaviors and temperament, but they will exhibit very similar physical traits.
"Pit bull," on the other hand, describes no specific breed. It is a catchall term for a wide variety of breeds and mixed breeds. Because of that, visual identification is nearly impossible - certainly not something you'd want to use in a legal or insurance context.
Areas which have some sort of breed-discriminatory legislation typically have a set of abstract properties they use to identify dogs: coat length, head shape, leg length and position relative to the body, etc. These are notoriously error-prone, and in many cases comically insufficient.
One of the paradoxes of pit bull advocacy is that advocates must take it on a certain amount of faith that they have a reason to advocate - that is, that they have "pit bulls" at all. For example, we have two dogs at home. Are they "pit bulls?" I don't know. I believe that if breed-discriminatory legislation were enacted at a state or local level where I live, they would be targeted because they adhere to some of those vague and abstract qualities. But it's not cut-and-dried at all. Identifying a pit bull is a complex proposition, as much as pit bull-type dog owners and anti-pit bull people would like it to be a simple one.
DawnP
10:29 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
Great post, Tim. But because I've seen other posts in this thread lumping "pit bull people" into some nefarious category all its own, I want to nitpick a little with your discussion of "one of the paradoxes of pit bull advocacy," since it implies that the only people who become "pit bull advocates" are those who own "pit bull type" dogs. I definitely understand the point you are making with respect to whether/how this affects you personally, but I would also venture to guess that you would be involved in this issue whether or not your dogs could be identified as pit bulls. I do not own, nor have I ever owned a "pit bull type" dog. "My" breed is the Australian Cattle Dog, which I don't think could ever be mistaken for a "pit bull type" dog. But I still consider myself a pit bull advocate because BREED SPECIFIC LEGISLATION IS WRONG. Plain and simple. (And based on many of your other posts, I would imagine that you'd feel the same, no matter what breed of dog you owned.)
Tim Hoelscher
11:08 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
@DawnP - yes, you're absolutely right. That was wrong of me to imply that advocacy for pit bull-type dogs or opposition to breed specific legislation is somehow confined only to the owners of these dogs. There are loads of people I've met who are advocating on behalf of *dogs* and who think BSL is just plain wrong. And they're right. BSL is (or should be) universally repugnant. It is legislation put in place with no regard for the complexity of the issue it attempts to address; in this way it's the most disgusting form of law and the kind we look back on with embarrassment and shame when it's inevitably repealed. BSL is a product of fear. Fear on the part of the public and fear on the part of legislators that if they don't do something *now* they won't be in a position to do anything after the next election, because inaction will be viewed as failure. Law as a product of fear should have no place in a modern society. Law should be more noble than that.
Tony Solesky
7:26 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012
Colleen, I have no doubt you are more educated then me. Everybody I no makes more money then me. You say many things that are true and you have many insights that allow me to prepare my testimony. Why have I not met you? Did yiu come to Annapolis?
Tim Hoelscher
11:31 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Tony, unfortunately, because of your shift from victim to antagonist, I'm not sure many pit bull advocates want to meet you. I've heard you speak at the task force hearings and the legislative hearings in the special session. I'm not sure Colleen or anyone advocating on behalf of family dogs would gain any greater insight meeting you in person.
Tanja O'Dell
3:04 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Thank you Tony, I now see what this whole case is about. It is all about the money and it doesn't matter who pays. Stop using your lack of education as an excuse for your poor spelling. I have about the same level of education as you do, and I can spell and make sense. One thing I have learned by reading these posts are the people that are against pit bull type dogs are the ones that can not form a complete sentence. I guess this explains why they feel the way they do, they are uneducated and uninformed and have no plans to do anything to change this. Tony, your fifteen minutes of fame are up now, please go away. I hope you are proud of yourself, many dogs will lose their life because you are money hungry and ignorant. You have blood on your hands. karma always wins in the end.
Karl Schuub
8:28 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
So you're telling a father whos son was nearly killed by a pit bull terrier that he has blood on his hands. I've seen a lot of gall in my day but that's rich. You pit people are completely ridiculous.
Brian
8:47 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
So Karl are you saying that this same father who's son was nearly killed by a dog that he bares no responsibility here? It may not be the most PC thing to say but never the less it was said.
Karl now the bar has been raise. Bravo to Tanja for speaking her mind.
Tony Solesky
6:55 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Tanja and Colleen, Origanally I said that if I had to choose whose post could be displayed between mine and Mike I woiuld choose all of his. Then you two arrived on the scene certainly the last two post would be added to that. I lerk around her because I am trying my best to get your points out. Yes you are absolutely correct about Karma I fully agree with you. As for the way it went with the judges I realize you all have not done your homework so I can tell you how it went. The first judge a retiered judge said we could not bring suit. So remember this is what "strict Liability" is all about. It doesn't mean you can win a suit it means you can bring a suit and the first judge said NO! We appealed and a judge read the contract the landlord crafted and said absolutelly you can bring suit. Why because the landlord acknowledge the pitbulls as a potential hazard on her property not just dogs in a lease. In this knowledge and concern the Landlord said if them harm someone I will in no way be responsible. In our land when one acknowledges a hazard that can harm HUMANS the standard is that you must take measures to stop that harm. You can not just right your self out of that responsibility. Why because it is know to you and under or law based on a moral code we must attempt to aviod the harm.
Tony Solesky
7:09 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
No one denies a dog of any breed can bring harm and kill so the law simply change to the fact that this is a universal known and like with cars or guns and the other various items Colleen mentioned we are already held to strict liability. The problem became what will happen when we hold everybody in Maryland to a standard that they all agree upon. It turns out many will bail so they are not responsible dog owners anyway. The blood of those dogs is on their masters hands. Next landlords why should they be strictly liable. The logic is because they are a homeowner and before they grant a lease they would now need to put in place a means to keep the dogs in a manner that would show an attempt to confine and care for them properly. Many homeowners also do not do this but remember they would already be able to be held to that responsibility. Landlord will not allow people to modify their property so they then are or can be the ones who may be restricting you a responsible dog owner from making the place safe or they may be the one who allows you to just chain your dog because they don't have a fenced property. What renter can afford to fence their yard? What landlord cares enough all they will say is hey I am just providing a place to live. Strict Liability says you can act as you always have with a car or a plane or the other examples. It is just you can't do it with out regard to recognizing that "ANY DOG CAN BITE OR KILL" and they said then get out and tenates said I want to
Tony Solesky
7:18 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Keep my dog but I can't afford a fence and insurance or either and also have a dog. And the landlord said well I am not going to put up a fence and besides this is not like a car or a pool because I can't be sure that your dog won't get out. at least a pool or a car I can secure but this dog of any breed is going to have to come down to weather tou the tenate are going to be a good owner of it. How can I the landlord be sure? So I the landlord say tell you what I am not in business to tell you how to live or have your choices affect my BUSINESS so aI say no. Then the Courts says well you know they do file tax returns as a business and if it were a bus a plane or even a regular car the insurance follows the person on the car title regardless of who is driving so it makes sense it should follow the land deed holder. So the case was heard and it was thrown out because the judge said Maryland law does not reconize that you have to consider a dog a hazard like cars and as Colleen and I agree any dog can be a hazard if not raised right. The judge said well Maryland does not say that. So we are a one free bite state meaning under law I can't prove you know what Colleen and I agree we know about dogs in law until your dog bites then I can say you know. We appealed and the special court which has 7 judges in a 4 to 3 decision said we agree with everyone any dog owner should know a dog is dangerous potentially and they ruled in our favor. and then the defense said we wnat to hear that
Brian
8:26 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
The key here is the dog owner acknowledges that all dogs can bite. Not the landlord. Strict liability refers to the owner. The difference between a car and a house in regards to insurance is tremendous. The car or pool is being used to cause the offense, whether it is being used by the owner or someone else. The house is not being used to cause the offense so therefore it does not fall in to the same category as the car. I dont see how a Judge could logically come to the conclusion that a house is the same as a car or pool.
Tony Solesky
8:51 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Brian I am glad for all of this debate because it exhaust protest and fosters action. You want control of your destiny with out a equal and opposite responsibility for what you have control over. You say you have no control over your renters. Then put that in your lease turn over all control to them just as the bank and the require they pay for the Homeowners/renter policy and just as the bank with no breech in either rent payment and insurance payment you leave them be. Otherwise you are in control. By the way not giving over control and people have trouble with that concept speaks to a very basic moral dilemma. I would suggest you all reread your post before you pass anymore judgements on the ruling
Tony Solesky
7:34 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
from the Highest Court and they said in a 4 to 3 decision yes we believe any dog can bit but we can't rule on all dogs so we must rule on Pit Bulls. Then the defense said is it even fair to consider any dog inherently dangerous, We did not ask the court that question the defense did and based on advice from the animal lobby who thought that that was breed predjudice and thought that the court reconized that arguement. The court didn't and does not recognize that arguement because they said breed means inherent. When you ask what is your dogs breed you are asking what is your dogs heredity. The court said yes a dog with a heredity to fight and this big and strong by heredity can then be inherently dangerous. It did not say that you can't own it safely just like a car a boat a plane and all of the other things Colleen and I agree upon. Colleen what you seem not to understand is that your last post acknowledges other activities that even you feel are also dangerous. All this law does is put dogs on that list because they are too. The problem is not the law it is that some people won't take on the responsibility that comes with that law applied to dogs. Even though as you say they do with cars and planes and the like. So if a tradgeity is born out of having to be responsible isn't the reaction to the law the tradgity? Not the law?
Tony Solesky
7:51 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Colleen don't kill the messanger because if you love dogs as you say they need you to get over your resentment even if your resentment is correct. They need you to get over it and anwser the questions. It is these questions that are in control unless the court reconsiders its own ruling which could happen. Still if you love dogs you need to focus less on your resentment and more on using your inteligence and education to answer the courts questions in a way that gets them to recognize you way. In fairness all you have done is complain about the ruling and me as the cause which even if true is irrelavant. If you believe that all dog owners as car drivers should be held responsible then you must follow the models that the ones like cars drivers (model after) that you support. Cars have a education component for dogs this would be pet owner education. Cars have a equipment safety componet which means inspection of equipment such as tires air bags and safety belts that we must use to keep our drivers and passengers safe. For dogs this could mean socialization. muzzles, fences, proper feeding leashes Sap and neuter and so forth. Now with cars there are accidnets injury and fatalities. This is undisputed with dogs as well. So how do we deal with that? We do it by having a compensatory component. Insurance Homeowners for liability, health for injury. If any dog ownr has a plan that does not include all three they have a flawed plan. we can't have a car that is inspected and
Tony Solesky
7:56 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Not get education any more then we can say hey I support spay and neuter and leash laws so I don't need insurance or education. Colleen you say you are a editor for a scientific journal. Then you know all about the three components of any prophalaftic barrier. Colleen you are a dedicated dog lover and I admire your dedication but the fact is you are a compartmentlized thinker and the world is much bigger then dogs dog owners and dog attack victims and in the big picture dog bit victims come first in my eyes the vastly larger 2/3 of america that doesn't even own dogs and the vastly larger number of dog owners who don't own and of the 40% of the dogs you say that are PitBulls. God Bless
Tony Solesky
8:32 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Brian, I support "some" of your views. What are you doing to get a bill introduced on the bankruptcy laws? Adrianne, I was there I have spoken to Krammer and Smiegel and Miezeur at great length. The fact is they did not pass a bill because to the delegate and the Senator every single one of them said they did not have enough information to feel they could draft a bill that addresses the many issues raised, even though all of Maryland, the house and senate agreed something has to change. So they drafted bills that they where not more confident in, then they were in the courts decision. That needs to be repeated they didn't like the decision but without review none knew enough to support a vote or bill to overturn it. Anyone can introduce a bill but when it got down to it ,none could say the court was so wrong they would overturn it or they would have. Regardless of what you heard every last one of them was told by the Task Force if they did not agree with the bill that was crafted jointly by house/Senate task force member s chaired by Anderson and Frosh then it was done. The dog lobby supported it. I supported it the insurance industry supported it because they just underwrite risk they just want to know what to underwrite. All supported it as not the best the as the best that could be done in a special session with less time. If anyone introduced bills beyond it then it was a plea for more time de-facto. It excluded landlords and abrogated the Solesky tracey ruling.
Tony Solesky
8:43 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Brian, it is not the same as a car it is my example to convey possibly poorly that it is a business location period that is how they file it and in the law the liability falls to the entinty who maintains control. A bank does not maintain control of the property so that is what makes me a homeowner and what makes my dog attachable to my homeowners policy. The landlord is a business with a homeowners policy they are the home owner the residents are in a lease in his home that he chooses to use that way. He chooses to let you have or not have dogs. It is not the residents choice. If what I was saying is not true then a landlord could not stop you from smoking or changing paint. You want control without liability and that is not a legal priciple. Do you know you can write a lease that turns complete control of the property over to the renter and aviod this. Or you can turn complete control over to the tenate and require they insure it. Or you can maintian control and insure it you have three options. Not liking them because you want control without liability is not a option. This is not my opinion it is that simple and it is how it works. You want your cake and eat it too. Now before you respond look up control.
Brian
9:13 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Tony, What I am doing is letting those with far more expertise figure out how to change the bankruptcy laws. I didnt stay at a holiday inn last night so I am ill equipped to handle that task.
Control : the power to direct, manage, oversee and/or restrict the affairs, business or assets of a person or entity. Now with this definition the landlord controls the property not the tenant. Thus the landlord maintains insurance for the property which he controls. The tenant is a different entity of which the landlord can not and does not control. As I said earlier the house or the property was not used in the commission the act so there is no culpability or strict liability applied to the homeowner.
Tony Solesky
9:00 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Karl, actually Brian is right I do have a responsibility in this as a parent and I should be held to Strict Liability and just like the landlord if it can be proved that I was negligent as a parent that can and will come out in the suit. Brian it is not about PC it is about the comment is not applicable in a case you have not had the benefit of familiarizing yourself with. I have already been deposed and such parental failing exist. I did raise by son to be his brothers keeper and he ran to assit his friend and almost lost his life doing so and won a accomadation from the State general assembly. Yes I a strictly Liable have been deposed you do know people being sued put up a defense right. Keep on chewing on your wounds their are more readers then posters and that is who I really am responsing to.
DawnP
11:03 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
Tony, to quote one of my favorite movies, "You keep using that word [strict liability]. I do not think it means what you think it means." You seem to be confusing the concepts of strict liability and negligence. If strict liability attaches to something, it means that a plaintiff can recover WITHOUT having to prove negligence. So if landlords were held strictly liable for a dog in their rental property, that would mean that they could take ALL the precautions they could think of (25 foot fence, heavy steel dog crate, special locks on the doors, magical force field...) and if somehow the dog managed to escape, they would STILL be held liable (unless they could PROVE that the victim was at fault -- proving that THEY (the landlord) were not at fault is not enough). You keep mentioning insurance, but insurance has nothing to do with liability. Insurance is a means of PAYING for damages once liability has been established.
This is why so many of us have a problem with the ruling in your case. Yes, it makes sense to impose strict liability on the owner of a dog -- any dog, regardless of breed. But it makes no sense at all to impose such liability on a landlord, who may "control" the property, but can't control the actions (or inactions) of the tenants. So what if the landlord builds the biggest dog crate and the most impenetrable fence? If the tenant doesn't use them to confine the dog, why should the landlord (or the landlord's insurance co) be financially responsible?
Brian
11:30 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
DawnP. your post is spot on IMO
Brian
9:28 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Tony fair enough. it just seemed here that you were not taking on any responsibility here. That you were trying to shove it all off on to the Tenant and landlord. I am glad you set the record straight.
You are correct I do not have all the particulars about the case. If I did I may draw a different conclusion. I am drawing my OPINIONS from what FEELS right and what seems to be LOGICAL. It is true with dialog comes understanding. I still am not convinced that the landlord should be held Strictly liable.
Tony Solesky
9:40 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Brian,
You have the right definintion but you finding that it is not applicalbe to the renter is completely without concern to your own post. Reread it if you have the power to limit anything what so ever that the tenate does on that property you are controling thier affaris and restricting their affairs and use and access. I am not in that situation as a homeowner and the renter is. who controls that difference is you the landlord. Really at this point that break down would be reasonability not acess to the information. You don't like the outcome of the properly applied definition and then even in the face of the definition you dispute it. I can only say take that up with the court when you are the father of a child you are not raising and have not given up that child for adoption. Being a landlord is like being a parent who has joint cutody, not someone who has given up the child adoption. Maybe a foster child is a better example. Renters are foster residents.
Brian
10:14 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Tony when one is a homeowner with a mortgage, the mortgage holder has controlling interest in the home . Why isnt the Mortgage holder held to the same standards as the homeowner?
Brian
10:21 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
I ask the above question because the bank has the ability to limit what you do as a homeowner to the property. Anything that lowers the value of the property below the amount that is owed is forbidden by the Bank. Therefore the bank has control of the property but you can not hold the bank to the standard of strict liability, can you?
Karl Schuub
10:25 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
The bank doesn't own the property - the bank has basically what amount to a mortgage lien and as such has no control or ownership. Nice reach...very, very long reach, but a reach and a miss nontheless.
Brian
10:53 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Karl we were not speaking on ownership here. We were speaking on control. If I were to use your argument of ownership then there would be no way Strict liability could be used on the landlord because the landlord doesnt own the dog. Tony was saying that because the landlord has control over the tenants actions, strict liability applies to the landlord. I say the landlord only has control over the property thus no control over the tenant and strict liability can not apply to the landlord. So ownership is not in question here.
Karl Schuub
10:17 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Wanna know how void of logic most of you pit crowd are? Colleen spends multiple posts explaining how you really can't say a pit is a pit because it could be anything...DNA testing would be needed, blah, blah, blah...people are mistaking pits for boxers and then spends more than one post assuredly telling us that a Jack Russell killed a child. How does she know it was a Jack Russell? Just a small, short-haired hyperactive dog could be anything - I expect it might have been a pit-bull in a Jack Russell suit trying to pin the act on some other breed. Rolleyes:
Karl Schuub
10:27 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Using your logic it doesn't matter...apparently without a DNA test no physical trait in an animal means anything in terms of identifying that animal and yet, on multiple occasions your co-loon makes a clear attestation that a Jack Russell killed a kid. You can't have it both ways.
Brian
10:30 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
@ Karl the difference is that a Jack Russell is a breed and a "PIT BULL" is not a breed. "Pit Bull" is a generalization used to describe dogs that fight in a pit. Your generalizations about "pit owners" do not bode well for you and your arguments.
Brian
10:44 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
The difference my "co-loon" make is that she didnt generalize. She reported on a specific breed of dog. Could she be wrong about the breed? Yup she sure could but instead of condemning all terriers she refers to one specific breed, the Jack Russell.
Most people who speak on 'Pit Bulls" have a limited understanding of what a "Pit Bull" is. Most dont know that there are many breeds of dogs that are put in a pit to fight. Those specific dogs that enter the pit to fight are then considered to be "Pit Bulls" , not the entire Breed.
Your welcome.
Karl Schuub
11:03 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Nice deflection but a deflection nontheless.
Tim Hoelscher
11:39 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Repeated from another thread:
The difference between identifying a dog as a Jack Russell and identifying a dog as a pit bull-type dog is stark. Jack Russell is a breed of dog; individual examples of that breed may vary in terms of behaviors and temperament, but they will exhibit very similar physical traits.
"Pit bull," on the other hand, describes no specific breed. It is a catchall term for a wide variety of breeds and mixed breeds. Because of that, visual identification is nearly impossible - certainly not something you'd want to use in a legal or insurance context.
See my original response in the other thread for elaboration.
Brian
1:25 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
Thanks Tim great description. I may steal that post if that is ok with you.
Karl Schuub
3:41 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
Visual identification is not impossible - they do it every day and with accurancy right over at the Harford County rescue and they appear to be spot on. Fact is in most cases if it looks like a duck and it quacks it's a duck and for legal purposes if it's deemed a duck you better be extra vigilant. The rest of all this DNA, lack of, can't tell, Jack Russell is just a very boring attempt to divert the argument into the weeds.
Tim Hoelscher
6:18 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
No, they do not visually identify pit bull-type dogs with great accuracy in Harford County or anywhere else in the state, country, or world. It simply cannot be done with any consistency or reliability. What is far more likely is that they do what most shelters and animal control officers do: they go through a mental or physical checklist and tick off those properties which, when taken all together, describe a vague creature called a "pit bull." It is a strategy of necessary convenience and economy, not accuracy.
Describing the shelter breed identification process as "spot on" makes no sense; there is no way to measure this without comparing the results of the visual identification against the actual, verified breed of the dog. This was actually done at Michigan State University: tests of pit bull identification in four shelters exhibited an overall success rate (that is, the shelter workers were able to ascertain that a dog was a pit bull-type and this was confirmed by DNA evidence) at somewhere around 35%. Granted, "spot on" is a loose term, but I'm not sure anyone would stretch those loose semantics down to the ~35% level.
So are you really comfortable in a world where "duck theory" is the basis of legislation? If this is sufficient for dogs, does this extend to people as well? If no, why not? Is it just a natural relaxation of ethics as we move down the food chain? If we know that duck typing is wrong, is it ethical to still engage in it?
Karl Schuub
7:42 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
Come on Tim..I want to give you the benefit of the doubt but that's plain ignorant.
Tim Hoelscher
1:00 pm on Saturday, August 18, 2012
Which part is ignorant? What's your counterargument? Here are my points; rebut them with fact, not insult:
1. Shelters do not have the time or resources to genetically test animals upon admittance. Visual identification is used instead.
2. Visual identification has been shown to be accurate on average only 35% of the time.
3. Visual identification is another way of saying "looks like a duck." If it looks like a duck but only *is* a duck 35% of the time, does it make sense that we would base legislation on visual identification?
Tony Solesky
10:34 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Brian, both good questions. I am heading to the beach for awhile. I would like to see what answer people come up with perhaps they will call the bank or a lawyer and find out. at this juncture it seems that bonding the asset with insurance is the common thread. That common Bond is bonded by mortgage holders who are required to have insurance that covers them when they act as residents so it would seem the gap is the the landlord should cover that inequity by insuring his renters as residents which takes us back to my first couple of post on how we keep it a private matter and not a taxpayer matter. Like I said what ever the difference is between a resident mortgage holder and a landlord mortgage holder is where the problem is coming from so all that ever need be done is say what does the resident mortgage holder do, provide or is required to do or provide to see to it that this stays off of the tax base and between the affected parties? Then all we do is require the affected parties figure it out. Keeps coming back to Landlords and dog owners. OK talk amongst ur -s -elfs and I will jump back in the fray when I get back from the beach.
Brian
11:21 am on Friday, August 17, 2012
Actually Tony I agree. It comes back to the tenant and the landlord. The landlord takes the position of the Mortgage holder and requires the tenant to carry insurance that will cover incidences like dog bites ( mauling, if you will ). I would be all for that but I am no way for holding the Landlord strictly liable.
Some one will ask what happens if the tenant defaults on the insurance? My answer would be the same that would happen if the homeowner defaults on the insurance on their home. The landlord will provide the tenant with the coverage and charge the tenant the cost of the insurance. Sounds like a really simple answer to a complicated issue.
Hmmm.... but maybe the landlord needs to be held strictly liable at this point in order for the landlord to be forced to require the tenant to get the insurance. ( just a thought)
Colleen Carter
3:34 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
You seem to fancy yourself as some sort of moderator or leader, and you are the only person who sees yourself in such a role.
Good, intelligent people care enough about information being correct that they are willing to spend time correcting idiotic assertions and repeated false claims that you (and a handful of others) continue to attempt to spread.
This does not mean that you are moderating or leading a discussion in any way. It simply means that people are so horrified by the level of ignorance and the asinine comments that you keep repeating even though they have been proven wrong and successfully challenged, that we cannot let them go uncorrected, especially if they have a personal impact.
You seem to have a ridiculously overinflated opinion of both your intellect and your influence.
Dogberry lives!
Tony Solesky
2:13 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
Yes I am back from the beach so I guess no one wished me bad Karma swimming. The conversation is moving more to the center with many excellent points. There are a few shots but they seem to be less vindictive and that happens after any manic frenzy where all sides have tired. What we do in lead paint is we have to assume that the house has lead if it was built in or predates 1978. So I would say from what I read on this site about 60 % of all dogs escape this broad brush. I do think that the burden to prove what you have must be they who chooses to own it. That is for one reason only. That the CDC said that the frequncy of dog bites over the last 30 years is staticitacally a epidemic. Dogs are a elective pursuit and the burden must be the dog owners. regardless of breed if you have children 12 and under they are likely by 76% to be a part of that epidemic. If you have more then one dog you increase the risk by a factor of 5 times per AVMA. There is no epidemic or public safety or lead standard that these act risk statistics would not fall completely on the parasite not the host.
Colleen Carter
3:50 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
There were 118 shark attacks last year, of which 17 led to death. More shark deaths than "pit bull" deaths, but you still swim.
There are no "vindictive" comments. There is a fatigue that comes from repeating oneself over and over and over again in a fruitless attempt to educate the ignorant. Honestly, interacting with you is frustrating because: 1. You honestly do not have the intelligence to carry on a reasonable debate, and 2. You don't recognize this, so you don't LISTEN to anyone but YOURSELF.
It would help if you would actually READ and attempt to comprehend what people are telling you, but you do not.
So occurrences of dogbites are up. Did you realize that the majority of dogbites recorded by the CDC are from SMALL DOGS? Did you also bother to notice that the CDC has stated that the causes of dog-related aggression are NOT related to breed an ANY WAY, and that leaving children under 12 unsupervised with a dog of any breed is one of the leading causes of aggression incidents? Did you read the part of the report that stated, "neither pit bull-type dogs nor Rottweilers can be said to be more “dangerous” than any other breed based on the contents of this report"?
The vast majority of the approximately 90 million dog owners in the U.S. are responsible dog owners that will never have an aggressive incident with their dog. Out of between 87 and 88 million dogs, 31 were responsible for a human death in 2011. The same number of people died in elevator accidents.
Tony Solesky
3:50 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
Colleen, Your observation about the motion taking a bit longer then usuaul, I think is accurate. I have no idea however if it is for why you say and have no reason to doubt you. As far as the DogBerry comment I am certain you will understand as a Historian of the south you will understand what I mean when I say Dogberry went to town riding on a pony stuck a feather in his hat and called it macaroni Dogberry keep it up Dogberry Dandy. Dogberry keep it and let the girls be handy
Tony Solesky
3:56 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
Colleen, Also you left out the biggest statistic of all and even pitbull owners agree that in every single instance where a child was bitten by a dog it was a dog that did the biting. I believe it was George Carlin who first made me aware of that statistic when he found out that as much as half of all divorced people are men. Tonights forecast Dark.
MR6453
6:04 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
Colleen, sharks cannot be put on leashes. When one swims, he enters the sharks home. When one has a dog, the dog is brought into the human's home.
One last thing...given the choice between leaving your kid alone with a Lab or a pit bull, which one would you choose? I know...neither, but play along anyway.
Karl Schuub
6:27 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
MR6453...that's not the answer. The answer is you can never know whether it's a lab or a pit because one's a breed, ones a group...you'd need DNA...it's unfair, media abuse, dogs are sweet, pity party. She's be happy to tell you the thing you think is a lab is actually a pit bull, and the pit is a lab anything to obsfucate and pull you into the weeds. It's a method and if you go to pit bull support sites they instruct folks on the talking points to use.
Steve
6:49 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
With the Pit. They aren't called the "Nanny Dog" for nothing.
http://www.ywgrossman.com/photoblog/?p=676
Tim Hoelscher
6:54 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
MR, I'm not sure the shark/dog thing works here. Dogs are a domesticated animal and sharks are a wild animal; I really don't know all that much about sharks, but just based on my basic understanding, I'm pretty sure they differ greatly from dogs in temperament, prey drive, what stimulates them to aggression, whatever. Also, by your logic doesn't the second sentence in your post imply that the human is the shark?
Karl, I don't think you're really getting my earlier comments. I did in fact say that dogs of a given breed usually exhibit many of the same characteristics. It's unlikely anyone would try to pretend a lab was some variation on a "pit bull" (assuming that the lab was purebred). I don't think you are really getting the concept that "pit bull" is not a breed. It's a far more nebulous term, and determining if dogs are "pit bulls" is a far more difficult task than you are obviously imagining.
I'm not sure why you are finding this so difficult to grasp, or why you are fighting so hard against it when I have provided scientific and anecdotal evidence showing this is so.
Karl Schuub
7:07 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
I don't find your premise difficult to grasp - just don't think it's valid. My lord..how many instances of unprovoked attacks do you need? But when debating the pit crowd the next predictable response is "don't trust the breed ID" when a serious attack occurs, so much so that you all seem to gleefully pull your golden retreiver and jack russell cards, but even then when you try to verify this information it isn't reported...doesn't exist. A thinking person is left to preclude that pit bull owners are part of the problem - I see no response here acknowledging any issues with pit bulls. To pretend these dogs aren't a problem defies intelligence, reason, and any real care or concern for these dogs.
Tim Hoelscher
7:52 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
You don't think it's valid? OK, if you're presented with scientific evidence and anecdotal evidence - two terrific ways of describing *reality itself* - and you refuse to acknowledge them as valid, what does that say about you? To me it says that you are willing to accept your own imagination of what reality is rather than what science and observation tell you it is. Does that strike you as a valid model of reality?
Of course dangerous dogs are a problem. I'm not sure anybody is saying otherwise. Those (like me) who oppose breed-specific legislation are saying it makes far more sense to protect the public from *any* dog that is dangerous, not just this sub-group of dogs with some vague properties in common.
Tim Hoelscher
8:07 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
Let's trace a scenario for a second. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that shelter workers and animal control officers are about equally adept at visually determining breed. Let's say further (you're not going to like this) that the 35% success rate is accurate. Now let's say a dog attack occurs and it's reported on the local news Web site/newspaper, whatever, the next day. Headline: "Pit bull attacks X."
Where did that headline come from? Did the owners describe their dog as a pit bull to the reporter? How do they know? Anecdotally, I've told you that I don't know what my own pit bull-type dogs' genetic composition is.
Did that headline come from first responders or medical personnel? Their ability to visually identify a "pit bull" is going to be even less accurate than 35% - probably significantly so.
Did that description of the dog in the attack come from animal control personnel? OK, average success rate 35%.
Did it come from the victim? Where did the victim learn the breed? From the owners?
Was the "pit bull" of the headline arbitrarily chosen by an editorial staff when the dog was described to them? They would certainly be well within their rights to do so, and would likely see more site traffic because of it.
This is why it's wise to be circumspect when you see a headline of "Pit bull attacks X."
If you can see the flaw in this logic, I'd l'd love to hear it.
Colleen Carter
8:36 pm on Saturday, August 18, 2012
Well, actually a DNA study in Ohio did show that many dog identified as "pit bull" has some lab in them, as well as several other breeds. Most did not share any breed commonality, which means that there is no "propensity" to any trait -- aggression or otherwise -- anymore than ALL dogs have a propensity, anyway.
Karl, I don't go to "pit bull support sites". I read studies by veterinarians and the federal government, and I'm smart enough to understand them. If you are not intelligent enough to read reports and/or understand reports, then please don't attempt to denigrate those who do. I'm sure you have your opinion, but it does not match that of those who have conducted studies and have DVMs and PH.D.s.
I don't say anything that is not backed up by science. If you can do more than give your uneducated and biased personal opinion, then please do so.
Colleen Carter
1:50 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Karl, there were 31 deaths related to dogs in 2011. At most (and this can't be verified), 11 were "pit bull type dogs". About 8,000 people went to the hospital with dog-bite related injuries in 2011.
There are approximately 80 million dogs in the U.S. With the subjective visual identification of "pit bull", most professional animal organizations believe that a minimum of 40% could be called "pit bull type dog". So, 40% of dogs were responsible for about 1/3 of incidents. That would be proportionally correct. If 40% of cars on the road are Honda Civics, and 40% of car accidents involve Honda Civics, we don't jump to the conclusion that Honda Civics are more dangerous that a Dodge Caliber, which is the lowest selling car in America. You don't blame people who buy Honda Civics for increasing the number highway fatalities because they purchased the most ubiquitous automobile in America -- unless you are a complete idiot, you look at the causes of car accidents apply those results to all drivers of all cars. Do you understand the analogy?
I hate to break it to you, but calling yourself a "thinking person" is hardly accurate based on your logic and reasoning.
MR6453
6:51 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
I got this...thanks Karl.
MR6453
7:13 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
Tim, you're entitled to your opinion. My post was addressed to Colleen.
Colleen Carter
8:41 pm on Saturday, August 18, 2012
And I answered you, even though I have editing work to do and this continued battle of wits with the unarmed is a waste of my time.
I was raised with a pit bull mix. I am one of 5 children. We all made it to adulthood, and I am the underachiever of the family with a master's degree (one sister has a Ph.D., one sister is working on her dissertation, and both of my brothers have two master's degrees). We all still mourn and miss her. She was a wonderful family dog.
Tim knows exactly what he is talking about. Don't denigrate your betters. You have no intellectual leg to stand on.
The shark comment was sophomoric, and I find it rather sad that you seem to believe your clever.
Tony Solesky
8:36 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
Tim, On one hand you say that the standard of identification should prevail on the side of the dog rather then public safety which cannot then be a public safety standard as that is designed to err on the side of caution for that purpose a dog "completely assumed" to be a Pit Bull demands upon it owner they must prove it is not not the reverse. Kind of like if someone leaves a bag unattended at the airport. As far as comparing dogs to humans in anyway shape or form you are now completely out of the realm of science and are arguing to a rational based on a outcome you have already arrived at. I would describe reality as aconstant and preception as the varaible so the degree to which one preception equals reality + what many call fate. You are on a tall very high cliff and you have taken a leap of faith with a breed of dog. You are so far from the ground you are confusing falling with flying but soon you will see the ground as you move toward it and you will realize you are falling. In the same way your arguements don't fly. Reality is the constant and we have as our constant Pit Bulls preception is it is all and how you raise them and fate is Dominic Solesky and many other human and animal victims including the Pit Bull breed itself. Here is science go get the most highly trained Pit Bull you can find and train it to track humans. I will pick a dog from a unborn letter of blood houds and at 6 month with no training it will find me.
Tim Hoelscher
1:32 pm on Saturday, August 18, 2012
Tony, I'm sorry - I'm not sure I followed this. I think what you're saying in the first part is that it makes more sense to ban a specific group of dogs in the interest of public safety and that the burden should be on the dog's owner to prove the dog is not a "pit bull?" I can't sign on to that, even conceptually. I think breed-specific legislation is the wrong way to address the problem of dangerous dogs, period. The idea that anyone should have to prove that a dog is or is not a pit bull makes no sense to me. I base this, again, on my own experiences over three dogs and thirteen years, and on scientific evidence about these dogs collectively called "pit bulls." Believe me, while I enjoy these dogs, if I saw any evidence that convinced me that they were inherently dangerous or prone to aggression, I simply wouldn't have them. I am far more a pragmatist than an idealist. I don't want to get my throat ripped out any more than anyone else, and I am confident that throat or any other tissue-ripping is not a danger with my dogs or with other dogs of this type owned by people I know. Dogs of any breed that I don't know? I assess that on a case-by-case basis.
I'm not sure where I compared dogs to humans. I made a reference to "walk like a duck" legislation for humans as compared to dogs, and whether it was ethical to use such a standard. But I didn't really compare the two, I don't think.
Patch will get mad at me if I go longer, so I'll stop there.
Tony Solesky
8:40 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
If you would like to take me up on that challenge we can do it with Bird dogs as well take as long as you want to train a Pit Bull and then I will pick the dogs from a unborn litter and with out training it will out hunt your Pit. I will bet all I own against all anyone who wants to take up the challenge. then I will let you train the most bad as Golden you can find and I will pick the Pit litter befroe it is born and if the dog is provoked it will kick your highly trained Goldens ass. You live in a fantasy world not the real world and if I am wrong then bring your wallet.
Colleen Carter
1:26 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Wow, Tony, you must have gone to veterinary school, because you are certainly the expert. Why don't you remind everyone where you got your veterinary education.
The vets at the American Veterinary Medical Association disagree with you, I'm sure they'd all be very interested in your research and data.
Tony Solesky
9:05 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
The first thing anybody that says they know about dogs better damn site know is that training is merely the direction of instinct. Obedience is the lording over a dog as in Obedience training. You can not train away instinct not can you train it in. You must breed for it which why the hell dogs are called breeds and require someone called aq breeder to even exist as no domestic dog has a instinct to only mate to members of it's breed. If your Pit Bull doesn;t fight it is the same as a Golden not used for hunting or a gun in a safe training does not make it no less then it is. Dogs are nothing like humans. Some poor 23 year old child died today as a result of that belief and it makes me sad for her and her family. She was a beautiful women who did everything that Tim says is correct and she is dead. What is the scientific arguement for that. Do share with us the mistake she made. I pray for her and her family because I know in her heart she thougth what she was doing was the correct way to handle a animal by treating it into instinct modification. So very very sad. And no no matter what she felt or how much she disagreed with me she did not deserve what happened it is very very sad sad day indeed.
Tim Hoelscher
1:54 pm on Saturday, August 18, 2012
Are you talking about Rebecca Carey in Florida? I have no idea what was going on in her home beyond her having multiple dogs, and if anyone else does, it's not in the news. I have no idea what those dogs' temperaments were and whether she was doing "everything that I say is correct." I find it very sad that someone who showed so much compassion to animals is gone, but whether she was too ambitious in the number of dogs she had, whether those dogs were properly socialized, I have no clue. They are described as dogs she was "caring for." That is a fairly ambiguous statement.
For the purposes of this discussion, though, only one of the dogs of the five at the home was described as a pit bull-type dog. It is not clear which dog was the attacker (well, I'm sure it's clear to you, but it is not to me). There is an excellent chance that the breed-specific legislation you are championing would not have protected her at all.
I agree with you that she did not deserve what happened, though. But legislation of any kind would likely have made no difference in this case.
Tony Solesky
9:20 pm on Friday, August 17, 2012
Preception - Reality = Fate.
Colleen Carter
1:57 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Opinion - IQ = Nonsense.
Tony Solesky
1:56 pm on Saturday, August 18, 2012
Tim, First the court of Appeals was limited in what it could rule on because all that has made it before them is PitBulls cases. The defense on the basis of your same position "asked the court is it even fair to say that a dog is inherently dangerous? The court answered that question also and you have the ruling on the common law that Pit Bull dog owners should be held strictly Liable. Then because this attack came from a Landlord premise as was the case in Marylands last PitBull fatality that Landlord because they have control of the property (in other words you don't put it up for rent this renter cant be there) could not foster a dog owners activities when in the third question they said the danger is inherent. Then in what I believe was an effort to compel the legislature to make it all dogs they stroked a broad brush possilbe in hopes they the legislature that has the ability to expand the law would. In either case Pitbulls would not have their situation change if they did or didnt . So now everybody says lets drop the dangerous part and just make it strict liability for all dogs. But since all commercial properties already adressed the 1998 ruling by just either not allowing pets or limiting their size without predjudice to breed they were covered for a while. But even if it is zStrict Liability to dog owners the landlords know that if they maintain any control over the property they can still be brought into the fray so they didnt support strict Liability all that
Tony Solesky
2:06 pm on Saturday, August 18, 2012
Much in the mena time the animal lobby moved over to supporting strict liability for all dog owners. The problem is that a tremendous number of people who rescue and foster dogs to a large extent don't own their properties and so this rule cuts into the people they can place them with and they are already choke with dogs because they largely have a no kill philosophy which is why the dog population has grown from 52 million in 2001 to 77 million at present ( some here say more) The AVMA gathered the larges multi-disiplanry conference ever and the first sentence said this is a public health problem. That was a concensus decison. However they do not address any statistics for public safety that because that would cut into the profits of the industry. imagine the profit loss if they went back to 52 million dogs all the while you have rescues screaming we are over run we need places to place dogs. Tim I can only tell you I know very well what is happening and you are abright guy who has limited information and made the proper conclusions on those limits. You actually would benefit greatly from meeting me not the reverse as you said earlier. I spoke to many in Annapolis and there are many reasons they couldn't get it done. My accounts of why are the most honest because at some point you are going to have to ask yourself how did a dumb as like me get it this far? Tim even your statistics are spoon feed to all of us to get these outcomes. But at some point you have got to go
Colleen Carter
1:56 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
You are the one being spoon fed false information and statistics. The difference between Tim and I, and you, is that our information and statistics are coming from people who have advanced degrees, conduct academic studies, and are respected members of professional animal organizations.
You are being spoon fed information by complete morons who manufacture statistics, consider "Google" research, and don't have one complete academic degree between them.
Tony Solesky
2:11 pm on Saturday, August 18, 2012
outside the box and realize that the term breed describes the discrimanating pratices of man as no dog is born with a nature to reproduce itself as a breed. A pit bull does not know it is a Pit Bull. Dogs are bred to get a very specific outcome to perform tasks above all other dogs. These are fighting dogs. They where never bred to be pets they became pets by animla rescue getting them from Police raids starting 35 years back. You can not make a Golden Retriver a fighter by training they will not respond to the harsh treatment that is needed to get a good fighter. At the same time you can not love the fighting instinct out of a dog. They are what they are because the are created by discrimination not the reverse
Colleen Carter
8:45 pm on Saturday, August 18, 2012
The scientific evidence is that a "pit bull" is a mix of up to 10 different, with little-to-no breed commonality. So, where does the "instinct" come from? It makes no sense. Does a lab/boxer mix have the same "instincts" as a bulldog/mastiff mix? Or do all dogs have the same "instinct" and are therefore equally dangerous?
This argument does not hold water with current DNA evidence. You make no sense.
Colleen Carter
1:02 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
The most common definition of "pit bull" type dogs are usually American Staffordshire Terriers and Staffordshire Bull Terriers. Most dogs visually identified as "pit bull" do not have any genetic connection to these two breeds. 80% of dogs called "pit bull" by dog wardens and shelter workers are mixes of 8+ other breeds (INCLUDING labs and retrievers), with most have no common breed DNA whatsoever, much less any related to AmStaffs or SBTs.
But these two breeds are AKC-recognized and registered. If these dogs have an inherent aggression due to breeding, then why are there ZERO aggression incidents involving full-bred, AKC-registered AmStaffs or SBTs? I mean, if this is why a "pit bull" is so dangerous, then you would think that the dogs from which "pit bulls" are most commonly thought to descend would certainly display aggressive traits. But they do not. AND, just to reiterate, 80% of dogs identified as pit bull do NOT have any common breed DNA.
Do a search on Ebay for "vintage pit bull". You will find photos of pit bull type dogs posing with families in Victorian clothing. They were the most common American pet for most of their existence. They were pets before they were chosen as the "dog du jour" by thugs (to replace Rotweiller, German Shepherds, Dobermans, and every other dog that has been marginalized when it became popular with thugs).
I've said all of this before. Please read and stop wasting my time. If you are unable to understand, then I can't help you.
Tony Solesky
2:26 pm on Saturday, August 18, 2012
Tim, probably much to everyones pleasure I am heading to the beach for a while. I just read your last post and so I guess I see that your basis arguement is that all dogs are and should be treated as individuals and as such it is a case by case. So maybe we are better in a philosphy discussion and it's implications. I don't support that belief as a public policy. I live by the idea that any concept I have of a animal as a individual is as it pertains to it's relationship with me the individual dog owner. Out side of that as a public policy I believe it must be put in a catergory that best describes the factors irrespective of the owner that will influence it. This is in my view how we set the boundries the dog can operate in. Then the individual owner should decide if they want to take that on and if they do and they develope a individualized relationship with a particular breed then I fully support that regardless of the breed. But until dog shows stop identifying dogs by breed and breeders stop writing and selling books about breeds and it just becomes one hodge podge lodge I would say you are correct you know very little about dogs and it is best you stay outside the show ring or the fighting ring because if money is involved you will lose your ass. My offer still stands if you want a education with a tuition bring your wallet. Outside of that yes even I enjoy the entertainment value we have all provided each other. I truly do.
Colleen Carter
1:23 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Tim, your POCKET LINT has a higher IQ than Tony Solesky. Don't forget it.
Tony Solesky
11:24 pm on Saturday, August 18, 2012
Any dog that is not a pure breed dog is a mutt. It would appear that the court would absolutely include all of the ten breeds within the term Pit Bull and any dog that is any variation of those breeds which as you said earlier was about 40% of all dog owners in Maryland. It means this ruling does not affect the 2/3 of Marylanders who don't own dogs or 60% of them that do. The only other option is Strict Liability for all dogs which everybody already said they support. I am not quite sure how that changes anything for Pit bulls and their mixes either way.
Colleen Carter
1:09 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
It removes "inherently dangerous" from one breed of dog. It removes liability from landlords, and it does not marginalize citizens who adopt shelter pets that may be subjectively identified as "pit bull". It will stop dog owners from being evicted from their rental homes or apartments because of their dog. It does quite a bit.
The vast majority of dog owners will never be involved in an aggression incident. I'm not really sure how 2/3 of Marylanders don't own dogs, and 60% do own dogs. That does not add up or make any sense whatsoever. But I do know that with almost 80 million dogs in this country, an awful lot of people find dog ownership to be an important part of their life, and with the relatively miniscule number of dog aggression incidents, all but .0002% of these people are responsible dog owners.
Tony Solesky
8:15 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Or the remaining 60% that do
Colleen Carter
12:40 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Considering the fact that your son is one of the .0002% of people seriously injured by dogs in the U.S., and an even LOWER number in Maryland, how can argue that your EXTREMELY RARE case should affect 40% to 60% of the people in this state who own dogs?
Either the rights of the individual count, or they do not. Individual rights count in your case, and not in the case of the tens of thousands of dog owners in Maryland who, statistically, will never be involved in a dog aggression incident?
Tony Solesky
11:41 pm on Saturday, August 18, 2012
It also does not affect the 70% of people weather they own Pits or not as far as being evictied. What is left is a supposed 30% and of that you are going to have to deduct the comercial landlords which I believe make up a full 22% or more of all rental properties. They already have place restrictions on wieght size and numbers of pets since 1998 to beat the bad rap of looking like they are breed predjudice. I paint many commercial properties some limit wieght to 40 some to as low as 25. Federal housing and military bases ban Pits by breed and some dogs by wieght both. The people who would be affected by the courts ruling are exactly those who should be as they either do not have insurance or the means to properly care for a dog and also take responsibility for its actions. That is like driving without car insurance or without putting a baby in a child set and the submitting that because you never have been in a accident it doesn't matter becasue it is all in how you drive. This whole issue is about no kill coming back to bite both the dogs, the owners, other pets, each other own breed and human victims and the money that drives a 77 million dog population vs 52 million of only ten years ago.
Colleen Carter
1:22 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
"No kill" is not in place in the majority of shelters in this country.
Also, if everyone who owned a dog adopted from a shelter instead of buying a dog from breeder, and if people spayed and neutered and didn't sell puppies on Craig's List, there would be no reason to ever euthanize an animal again.
I've interacted with lot of owners of pit bull type dogs since this idiotic court ruling. The reason that the governor and general assembly acted so quickly, and so much in the favor of dog owners, is because we are taxpayers who earn a lot money, have post graduate degrees (quite a few doctors and attorneys and a few local politicians), donate to political campaigns, and are a very intelligent and influential demographic. If the majority of owners were illiterate morons who abused their dogs, then there would be no controversy. No one argues that spay/neuter and back yard breeding should end.
You seem to want to categorize owners of "pit bull type dogs" as irresponsible thugs. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the vast majority of us are intelligent, educated, professional high earners.
Karl Schuub
6:56 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I find it unusual that you feel compelled to keep telling everyone how much education you and...then that moronic anecdote that pit bull owners consist of the highly educated, doctors and lawyers and such - quite the crap. Everyone knows that's not true - the majority of pit bull owners can hardly be described as the demographic you pretend. You "doth protest too much" which always raises a red flag. Are you obsessed over this stull - 1:22 am, 3 days later and you still sqwauking out the same short list of talking points. Get a life.
Colleen Carter
11:19 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Everyone does NOT know that this is not true. Actually, the majority of people who adopt these dogs own homes -- not all, but many. This is largely due to the fact that dog over 40 pounds do best in a home with a back yard rather than an apartment.
In my part of the state (Montgomery County), good luck finding a home with a back yard for less than about $500,000. There are quite a few "pit bull type dogs" in Montgomery County, and relatively few aggression incidents. Why do you think that is? Do you think that responsible people owning dogs lowers dog aggression incidents? Do you think that PERHAPS laws addressing how dogs are treated (such as Montgomery County's tethering and dog enclosure laws) affects the incidents of dog aggression? Do you find it at all odd that Prince George's County is right next door, has a breed ban, and has dog aggression incidents that are over 3X those of Montgomery County?
Your comments nothing but vitriol and nonsense. I have a problem with idiots and losers who spread false information. I choose to correct idiots and losers who spread false information. Consider yourself corrected. And PLEASE GET A LIFE!
Tony Solesky
7:56 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Remember the court could reverse its decision and then all of this could be mute.
I will just do what is done in any debate and have my last word. Everyone agrees that all dog breeds can be bite, injure and kill. All that "Strict liability" does is make it known under the law . That’s it, nothing more. The court could rightly have applied it to all dogs. It has not been the case for all dogs, they confined their ruling to what was before them. It appears they tried to include as many as they could. Perhaps to get the legislators to finish the work they started. No one disagrees any dog breed can injure or kill ,so even though limited I don’t know how they can disagree with the ruling other then its limited application?
A certain segment of society is not in a situation to account for that agreed upon danger or is unwilling to accept the responsibility that goes along with it. Pit Bulls are not banned and my sister has no intention of giving up hers. Further she never had any intention of not being financial responsible for any dog she has owned much less Roxy her Pit Bull. Landlords as a result may decide that once they recognize legally any or all dogs can be dangerous, that they just don’t want to allow them. It their property. I think any logical mind can realize if the landlord as the property controller have an ability to abate or mitigate danger, if they don’t ,they bare a responsibility for not doing so. It can’t logically be both .
Colleen Carter
11:12 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
So your legacy will be that responsible people who rent will be able not adopt dogs larger than 40 pounds, and more innocuous dogs will die in shelters.
NICE!
Your "certain segment" is less than .002% of the 88 million dog owners in the U.S.
Brian
9:32 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
Landlords control the property. Not the tenants and their pets. Using the logic that you are using the landlord would be responsible for the tenant that goes out and drinks and drives and kills/injures someone. You want to hold a landlord financially responsible for the tenants pet's action because if they hadnt rented to the tenant with a pet the attack would not have happened. That makes no sense to me.
Mike
8:41 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Tony Solesky said, "Everyone agrees that all dog breeds can be bite, injure and kill."
No dog breed has ever bitten, injured, or killed anyone or anything.
Some DOGS have bitten, injured, or killed. (And only SOME.) But no dog BREED ever has.
This is not a semantic argument. It is an extremely important distinction.
Failure to understand the significance of this distinction is the same failure that leads to all manner of intellectually-flawed, corrupt, and immoral application of force of law against groups of people, based upon some vague group identifier, rather than based on the specific behavior of each as an individual.
Mike
8:45 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
BTW Tony, your bizarre and despicable (and notably quite incorrect) post with all sorts of nonsense inference about my sex and my gender-bias-driven motivation seems consistent with your inability to either understand or honor the distinction made above. (AKA: you're either missing the distinction, or lying to yourself by ignoring it.)
DawnP
11:46 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
Putting aside the issues of pit bulls and breed specific legislation, looking back at Mr. Dunne's original Letter to the Editor, I find it difficult to understand how he got from his core belief that "the cost of an injury should be borne by the person who caused it, not the victim," to advocating for strict liability against landlords for the actions or inactions of their tenants. I think that most, if not all of us (except for those who advocate for "tort reform" without really knowing what that means) would agree that the cost of an injury should be borne by the person who caused it, not the victim. But imposing strict liability on landlords goes well beyond this concept, and instead imposes liability on someone who had no hand in causing the injury, simply because (as others have pointed out) they have deeper pockets. How can anyone argue for this with a straight face?
Of course, if it can be PROVEN that the landlord did somehow have a hand in causing the injury (as in, proving actual negligence - meaning they had a legal duty to the victim which they failed to meet), then they should be liable. But the imposition of strict liability removes the need to prove negligence - even if the landlord did everything "right," under strict liability, they will still be financially liable. Again, I ask, how can anyone seriously argue for this outcome?
Tony Solesky
2:29 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
Remember the court could reverse its decision and then all of this could be mute.
I will just do what is done in any debate and have my last word. Everyone agrees that all dog breeds can bite, injure and kill. All that "Strict liability" does is make it known under the law . That’s it, nothing more. The court could rightly have applied it to all dogs. It has not been the case for all dogs, they confined their ruling to what was before them. It appears they tried to include as many as they could. Perhaps to get the legislators to finish the work they started. No one disagrees any dog breed can injure or kill ,so even though limited I don’t know how they can disagree with the ruling other then its limited application?
A certain segment of society is not in a situation to account for that agreed upon danger or is unwilling to accept the responsibility that goes along with it. Pit Bulls are not banned and my sister has no intention of giving up hers. Further she never had any intention of not being financial responsible for any dog she has owned much less Roxy her Pit Bull. Landlords as a result may decide that once they recognize legally any or all dogs can be dangerous, that they just don’t want to allow them. It's their property. I think any logical mind can realize if the landlord as the property controller have an ability to "ABATE " or "Mitigagte" a danger, if they don’t ,they bare a responsibility for not doing so. It can’t logically be both .
Adrianne
11:13 pm on Tuesday, August 21, 2012
Mr. Solesky. The court has partially reversed it's original decision, declaring that only "purebred pit bulls" could be declared defacto dangerous and subject dog owners and and landlords subject to strict liabiity "Pit bull mixes, pit bull crosses, or cross-bred pit bulls" are no longer under this decision. Were the dogs in your case American Pit Bull Terriers registered with the United Kennel Club or American Dog Breeders Association? Were UKC or ADBA registration papers made a part of the court case?
Tony Solesky
4:48 pm on Wednesday, August 22, 2012
Hello Adrianne,
As you know I had already posted my last word on this subject in context of this article. I will be happy to participate under a more recent article that was written by Byran Sears I believe it is titled cout won't reconsider. I would think that is the better place to anwser any new questions. That said while I am here yes the dog owner produced papers on his dogs for the Police and they are identified in a public Police report by those papers. Also I will be happy to respond to anything you dislike or disagree with in my e-book. Remember however if a dog does not reveal to be game even when exposed to the fight training. That is to say it just ain't in him then that has to be equally true that because a dog is exposed to kind training but he is game it just ain't in him to not be dangerous. Further dogs that wash out in hunting is just like anything else at the hif=ghest level of performance. It doesn't mean because the dog wasn't a great feild trail bird dog that it doesn't turn out to be a excellent hunting dog. There is no difference between a dog that can't fight at the highest level does not mean that it can't somehow be dangerous to all lesser dog opponents and children and as statistics show what I say here is the more likely case then your determination of what it is to be a washout for a given breed. My question to You is what do you think breed means?? Please post on other Article
Tim Montoya
12:26 am on Wednesday, August 22, 2012
Why does there need to be a ruling claiming a specific breed of dog "dangerous"? Why can't it be dealt with like any other type of incident where someone/thing is innocent until proven guilty? Also, if you rent a car, the driver is responsible, not the leasing company. Why should a landlord be made responsible for the actions of their tenants. Lastly, just because the ruling has been changed to "pure-bred" pits doesn't mean it will clear the muddy waters. How will a "pure-bred" be determined? Not all Pit Bulls, Staffordshire Terriers, or American Pit Bull Terriers come with a ribbon that says "Pure-bred".
Adrianne
7:02 am on Wednesday, August 22, 2012
Tim, there is no rational answer to your first question. The only answer I can come up with is because a personal injury attorney reviewed earlier case law in Maryland, wanted to find a "deep pocket" to pick, and decided going after a particular type of dog was the best way to go about achieving that desired outcome. It didn't matter that he based his case on outdated, long-refuted false information and long-dispelled myths. It didn't matter that the court did not seek out any other easily found subject matter experts to make a knowledgeable decision. It didn't matter that thousands of innocent dog owners with benign family pets were immediately thrust into a life and death situation. Baltimore area shelters had lines of surrendered dogs forming yesterday as one community issued an outdated letter demanding many of the dogs living there be removed immediately.
The court also left us with no way to tell how a "purebred" can be determined. But I take this as a good thing. A "pit bull" is not a breed, so it by definition really can't be "pure bred".. A "pit bull" is a vernacular, slang, catch-all term, just like the term "retriever", or "shepherd". It's a descriptive term that only describe what a dog looks like, not its heritage. The very term itself implies that a dog with that moniker could even be a mixed breed, or a dog that simply "looks like" someone's idea of it. As such, it's a subjective term and wide open to interpretation and a weak point to stand on in court.
Mary High
8:54 am on Saturday, August 25, 2012
This is what the American Bar Ass. August 6, 2012 Delegates conference is urging governments to do over breed bias laws.
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/pit_bull_bias_aba_house_oks_resolution_urging_breed-neutral_dog_laws/
I encourage EVERYONE to read this.The actual article is a doc. file. that you have to download. But the link is how you get to it. Just click resolution 100 at the beginning of the article.
Tony Solesky
9:18 am on Saturday, August 25, 2012
Brook, What I am saying is that thi is a five year case to make it to the Highest Court and what you present as evidence does not hold water in that court. I am saying in all my post don't kill the man carrying the news. Your beef is with the court not me. It doesnt matter if you say fallocy all the time or not.
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